White River Greenwater USFS road closures - access travel mgt plan

[trophyhunt]

Does the forest service ever plan to log in the future?  If so, are they going to build the damn roads again?

[logger]

The deal now is they have to "offer" up a certain volume of sales, however nothing says they can't regulate it to the the point nobody bids them because it's a money losing deal, We have sales now where we open up old forty to fifty year old roads, doesn't take much to do it, when we are done we are "required" to rip them out beyond recongniton, most of these old roads are awesome for hunting walk up them with minimal issue, not when we are done, there gone for good!! forest service timber sells for a fraction of what state timber sells for mainly do to the dumbest things a person could ever think of in the contract

[pope]

These are the maps of the FS final proposal:
http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/11558/abc123/forestservic.download.akamai.com/11558/www/nepa/102767_FSPLT3_3906969.pdf

The red roads will be decommissioned. The yellow will be "closed", not clear on the method. The green will remain open.

Corral pass will remain open. Last I heard it was closed indefinitely. I think it was summer of 2015 we climbed that hill on bikes and it was closed to vehicles at that time, if my memory is correct.

[ElaphusElatus]

Restoration of some logging on USFS lands is definitely needed, but so far has been limited by the Northwest Forest Plan. The Plan is potentially under revision
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r6/landmanagement/?cid=stelprd3831710
and will guide individual forest plan revisions. The MBSNF last updated their Land and Resource Management Plan in 1990
http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/mbs/landmanagement/planning
Keep on top of this as your rational comments must be heard.

The argument for more cutting will come from some of the same scientists who were proponents of old growth. They are realizing that a healthy functioning ecosystem has diversity of ages and stand structure, and the ways to get this are fire, insects, root rot, or cutting timber. We need to make sure that science drives the plan revision. The future won't be the way it used to be, but hopefully it will result in more robust ungulate herds on public lands, as well as a healthier ecosystem used by a greater diversity of species, and maybe a few more roads.

[bigtex]

Does the forest service ever plan to log in the future?  If so, are they going to build the damn roads again?

There's more logging going on now (and in the past 5 years) in the Mt Baker Snoqualmie than there was in the previous 20.

[RB]

I have a hard time with the forest service closing any road, My company decommissions roads for them and it drives me nuts to rip out a road that could be in pretty good shape with minimal maintnance, $270,000 to rip out six miles almost perfectly good road, for that kind of money we could have fixed up alot of system roads and I mean alot, some are as simple as cleaning the ditch and culverts and brushing the road doesn't take near as much money or effort as the forest service would like to make out.

Have always wondered about that, there are plenty of small private contractors that would brush out roads and clean the ditches for a reasonable price. 

[Special T]

Logger thanks for shining some real world experience on the usfs stupidity.

[netcoyote]

I have a hard time with the forest service closing any road, My company decommissions roads for them and it drives me nuts to rip out a road that could be in pretty good shape with minimal maintnance, $270,000 to rip out six miles almost perfectly good road, for that kind of money we could have fixed up alot of system roads and I mean alot, some are as simple as cleaning the ditch and culverts and brushing the road doesn't take near as much money or effort as the forest service would like to make out.

Have always wondered about that, there are plenty of small private contractors that would brush out roads and clean the ditches for a reasonable price. 

I attended the public meetings on the FS proposals for the Greenwater area. The FS tried to always tie the road reduction back to funding but if you listened carefully, you could hear the other reasons clearly. Even the title of the project, "Travel Management Plan" spoke to the notion of restricting TRAVEL more than road maintenance or budgets. I asked if they had metrics to understand what the level of usage of these roads are
getting or a study of the demographics of just WHO was using the roads. They admitted they had done NO evaluation of those metrics. They brought up the statement several times about how many "miles of road per acre" or road density as metrics they were looking at. Wouldn't that metric just align with the higher density population metric of the surrounding area? Also big on their priority (no surprise) was fish habitat and native American access. I suspect the later is why so many of the roads are listed as "basic custodial care" rather than open. That implies that money will still be spent on maintenance but that access will be available for some (guess who?)

Bottom line take-away many of us got at the meeting that the "budget reason" was BS and they were marching to a different drummer than public opinion. Maybe with a new administration at the top of the Dept of Ag. which controls this at the highest level, there may be some hope of halting this road destruction before it's too late.

[Naches Sportsman]

Their "lack of budget" trick gets played all too often and time is running out before the majority realizes what is happening.

They are getting funding from outside sources to rip out these roads and gate them.

I think someone willing to write about it from the inside can create a best seller book.

[trophyhunt]

If they do gate some roads AND the natives get keys, those gates will just have to be constantly repaired!

[Special T]

Their "lack of budget" trick gets played all too often and time is running out before the majority realizes what is happening.

They are getting funding from outside sources to rip out these roads and gate them.

I think someone willing to write about it from the inside can create a best seller book.

It's called "The Tinder Box; How political correctness destroyed the USFS"  many have read it. Logger bought a copy and read it and said it was spot on.

It is the most documented case of how preferential hiring and quotas  screwed up what was once a surplus agency while providing massive amounts of outdoor recreation.

[bigtex]

Bottom line take-away many of us got at the meeting that the "budget reason" was BS and they were marching to a different drummer than public opinion. Maybe with a new administration at the top of the Dept of Ag. which controls this at the highest level, there may be some hope of halting this road destruction before it's too late.

I wouldn't hold my breath. After all it was the GW Bush administration who implemented this whole "Travel Management Plan" process and required forests to start working on them.

[Special T]

This subject is just another example why people like me  aren't so scared of returning federal lands to the states. How much benifit and access are we getting my letting the feds control it? Oh yeah it keeps diminishing with every road bed they take out or gate.

[bigtex]

This subject is just another example why people like me  aren't so scared of returning federal lands to the states. How much benifit and access are we getting my letting the feds control it? Oh yeah it keeps diminishing with every road bed they take out or gate.

There's a lot of gates on DNR & WDFW lands as well. What about red dot roads on state areas?

Heck in King County basically every DNR parcel is gated and closed to target shooting, there's less restrictions on the USFS lands in King County then there is on DNR land. And if you think this is just a King County issue think about all of the public meetings DNR has had to start regulating recreation in several other parts of the state

[fireweed]

Personal example of USFS road management:

Private timberland owner and USFS both use same road to get to their different parcels of land, they have a "cost share agreement".  Big landslide wipes out part of the road.  Forester and USFS employee jointly take a look at the problem.  USFS guy, "Oh, this is really bad.  Will take at least a year and $150,000. It will need a NEPA."  Private forester, "let me handle it, and you cost share,"  USFS makes smart decision and replies "ok".   $15,000 and a few weeks later, road is fixed following state rules.   

The problem and cost is in the PROCESS not the actually fixing or maintenance of roads.