Purpose of true spike units?

[Hot Lunch]

I spent a couple days afield this year in Wa for elk and some friends gave me a heads up about knowing the difference between a true spike and spike depending on what unit I was hunting.

I under the law, but have no idea what the purpose is? Anyone know why WA has true spike regulations in some units?

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

Because its a screwed up state political wise.....

[coachcw]

In a nutshell 70 % of spies are true spikes. That would eliminate 30 % from harvest exception from data is about 50 % of them will get shot any way so in the  long run it saves about ten elk from being shot if you look at a unit like 38 where 15 to 20 true spikes a year are harvested . Pretty much complete crap . Limiting the number of branched bull permits is the single best way to grow big bulls .

[nwwanderer]

To increase the number of branch antlered bulls, someone told them that would be a good idea.  Generally I agree.  Not that simple though.  Long before the spike only rules it was possible to see more than a hundred calves with a hundred cows, twinning was pretty common.  Not that those numbers are normal, I have only seen it a couple of times in more than 40 years watching, none in the last 15 or 20 years.  Cats were hound hunted, bears were taken in higher numbers and wolves were rare at best.  This last weekend I watched at least eight branch antlered bulls and saw a total of five antlerless, three cows and two calves.  One of the local elk watchers claimed 40 or 50 branch antlered bulls are wintering close by.  I would not be surprised.  His total cow count was about 20.  The branch antler kill is by draw or big money only.  Cow permits still exist by draw in this area.

[Boss .300 winmag]

To drive spike hunters crazy seeing all those big Bulls while chasing spikes around the hills.   

[hughjorgan]

The yakamas complained about not having enough branch antler Bulls to shoot and show off at the local sports men's shows...

 

[PlateauNDN]

 

[DOUBLELUNG]

In theory, to increase yearling bull escapement and increase numbers of branched antler bulls while maintaining OTC license sales. 

[cooltimber]

doublelung
                    Ive thought that for yr's.Thats why i don't hunt in those areas.escapement is paramount.They need more breeding bulls. 

[boneaddict]

It would be lovely to see the harvest statistics from the Yakamas.   Oh ya, there aren't any.   So you either have to have big money, aka.... gov tag money, be really really lucky, or be enrolled.  I think thats 1/8 now, or is it 1/16?  In other words, it's what doublelung said, but really just turned the area into a tribal bonanza. Lol

[Hot Lunch]

Excellent point Bone and thanks for shedding some light on this for me DOUBLELUNG. During the big game meetings does this issue ever get brought up that we are essentially creating extra opportunities for our co-managers??

[HUNTaHOLIC5]

I thinks it's 1/4 bone.

[PlateauNDN]

It is a good point and a valid one. Honestly, why not make it 3 pt minimum or eliminate the true spike. I hike to where I want bulls so I'm good. Also, blood quantum is still 1/4 for us Yakama though I imagine it's reducing for some of the Westside tribes, such as the Mucks and Puyallups.

Or how about less roads? Eliminate the spur roads/side roads and keep the main roads for more escapement?

[boneaddict]

I heard two were shot on the highway outside of Naches this morning, so not sure the elimination of roads is the answer, though it does slow it down some this time of year.  Right now its wanton slaughter on the winter range.   Not impressed.   At least the colvilles and the mucks know enough to pull the plug on Dec 31st.


Ya Plat, that Muck I sent you a pic of hunting looked lighter than me. LOL

[coachcw]

Tag system period.if the yaks got  one tag  that was open year round I'd be OK with it . Take the one you want and be done . No reason a deer and elk per adult wouldn't be enough for a familly. Heck throw a wild horse in too.

[PlateauNDN]

Tag system period.if the yaks got  one tag  that was open year round I'd be OK with it . Take the one you want and be done . No reason a deer and elk per adult wouldn't be enough for a familly. Heck throw a wild horse in too.

Blasphemy! My 2 baby girls eat thru an elk themselves. I fight them for seconds. I would honestly support 2 male per species sept 1 thru dec 31. and females no limit same time period. Ceremonial hunts limited to females species.

[coachcw]

Tag system period.if the yaks got  one tag  that was open year round I'd be OK with it . Take the one you want and be done . No reason a deer and elk per adult wouldn't be enough for a familly. Heck throw a wild horse in too.

Blasphemy! My 2 baby girls eat thru an elk themselves. I fight them for seconds. I would honestly support 2 male per species sept 1 thru dec 31. and females no limit same time period. Ceremonial hunts limited to females species.

I bet you would      ....... I can't say I'd be any different  in giving in on any rights I had ..... the difference is some Indians  pull the trigger plat .... gotta be a happy spot between one and twenty seven bulls.

[PlateauNDN]

Tag system period.if the yaks got  one tag  that was open year round I'd be OK with it . Take the one you want and be done . No reason a deer and elk per adult wouldn't be enough for a familly. Heck throw a wild horse in too.

Blasphemy! My 2 baby girls eat thru an elk themselves. I fight them for seconds. I would honestly support 2 male per species sept 1 thru dec 31. and females no limit same time period. Ceremonial hunts limited to females species.

I bet you would      ....... I can't say I'd be any different  in giving in on any rights I had ..... the difference is some Indians  pull the trigger plat .... gotta be a happy spot between one and twenty seven bulls.

I know Coach, it's not a question of giving up rights but regulating them. My argument to our officials has been that if there's seasons and regulations for salmon and other anadronomous fish the why not big game as well.

There's less big game numbers then fish but yet we allow the unregulated harvesting of them? We regulate moose, big horn sheep and mountain goats but not deer or elk?

Again, I'm not saying give up rights but regulate the harvest numbers to allow sustainability of the herds.

Self-control isn't difficult.

[danderson]

  The reason for the true spike rule has been discussed in prior threads, well documented and debated with lots of good points from all sides, not sure if sound game management can influence the bull to cow ratio when out side influences effect there goals, I know for a fact that more deer and elk get killed on the roads between Easton and Ellensburg annually than get harvested legally by hunting, throw in tribal harvest, poaching, miss-identification, depredation from predators, Bigfoot, aliens-its a very complicated issue
 

[bobcat]

It should be an any bull season with a limit on the number harvested either by limited permits or a quota. But yes, in addition to that there needs to also be a limit to how many the tribal hunters can take.

Plat said a limit of two Bulls would be good, and I'd be fine with that. But I definitely don't agree with no limit on cows.

I couldn't disagree more with the spike only rule. Dumbest thing ever. If it's such a good management strategy then let's go to spike only for mule deer.

[coachcw]

Some times  it's too simple to accomplish. As far as I know  the  Yakima tribe get fifty percent of the harvest in there ceded lands . Now the problem with this is there is no limit on spikes or three point bucks therfore no way of knowing what fifty percent may be. Simple  use harvest data to allocate a real number to go by ..... say 200 elk get killed the next season allow 200 triple harvests.  Let the Yakima allocate a number of those tags to other tribes in a manner they see fit . Every elk and deer gets tagged . I feel this number would be reasonable and the department  of game could set seasons and limits with real data and a partnership with the tribe. The tribe could had out the tags as needed and my bet is one member wouldn't shoot 27 bulls in a season .

[boneaddict]

Definitely getting closer coach.   I believe the colvilles are one elk per member per year.  That's perfect.  I also like their season close dates.   I don't think animals should be hunted after December 31st.   Give em a break.  Its kind of hard to manange any wildlife if you don't have any data.  Coach has some good ideas.   Get a tag and turn it in.  Not sure why its so far fetched for the Yaks to self regulate and participate in sound management.   The colvilles are set up very similar and have a great game management program.  Sometimes I think they overharvest a bit,  but they flex or at least make an attempt to.

[matt509]

The tribal hunters should be allowed to do whatever they want whenever they want on reservation land.  If they intend to harvest off the reservation, they should be required to do so in a more primitive manner, similar to the way their elders did.  It should be limited to archery.  The ancestors never had rifles/optics combinations that were capable of long range shots.

[DOUBLELUNG]

Excellent point Bone and thanks for shedding some light on this for me DOUBLELUNG. During the big game meetings does this issue ever get brought up that we are essentially creating extra opportunities for our co-managers??

Oh yes, and sometimes rather heatedly.  I think any restrictions on tribal harvest other than as imposed by the tribal councils is a non-starter, just my opinion.  The only real, actionable option is less motorized access on public lands.

[HUNTaHOLIC5]

The tribal hunters should be allowed to do whatever they want whenever they want on reservation land.  If they intend to harvest off the reservation, they should be required to do so in a more primitive manner, similar to the way their elders did.  It should be limited to archery.  The ancestors never had rifles/optics combinations that were capable of long range shots.

So you would agree with anti gunners that the second amendment doesn't apply to modern weapons amd it only protects weapons in that era? I'm sure you don't but it's the same thing.

[Fl0und3rz]

$

[steeleywhopper]

True Spike was put into effect to make me switch to West Side Archery. I am officially converting to West Side elk hunting as of 2016.