Save our Hatcheries

[snake]

That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 

Its a matter of opinion,  I was actually being nice btw.  Its much deeper than the short paragraph i have written.  Its a way of thinking.  We are talking about Washington State for god's sake!Tree hugging, Dirt worshipers with no idea of conserving wildlife or a certain way of life.(Fishing,Hunting, Trapping)  Open your eyes!  People need to stand up and speak against uninformed stupidity, it spreads like a disease.

Then it is my opinion that you musn't have read his posts very thoroughly.

To be clear, I signed this and I think people should signs this to preserve the system as it is. My purpose is to encourage additional discussion because, while I have my opinions, as I said above I damn sure don't have answers.

Really, it's gotten to be such a complicated issue there really is no black and white. If purely wild fish were the answer, we'd need harvestable numbers that we may never see for a multitude of reasons? If hatchery fish were the only answer, why has 100+ years of intense salmonid culture gotten us where we are today?

My point exactly, so why would we close all hatcheries and suspend all fishing including catch and release for 20 years.

[7mmfan]

I don't think that is a plan, as much as an idea guys. Fisheral's post stemmed from a conversation him and I had after my trip to the coast this last weekend. I fished the Clearwater Thursday, hooked 8 fish. Fished the Queets Friday, hooked 9 fish. Saturday and Sunday were basically nill. Just so happens that on the days we didn't hook hardly any fish, Indians were drift netting the Queets at the mouth of the Clearwater, and had nets set crisscrossing the river down from that.

The point is that if we give these fish a chance, a majority of the systems could sustain wild harvest. Puget Sound rivers are a different story. I've seen the Sky closed to catch and release for about 15 years now with limited recovery of that stock. No one really knows why but I hope they figure it out soon.

Hatcheries, if run with wild brood stock from the river systems they are on, could lend a huge helping hand in recovering basin specific stocks, just ask the Nez Perce, they nailed it with their fall chinook in Idaho.

Snake noted that fishing is a thing that is passed down from generation to generation. He's correct. You have to plant that seed early and keep it fed to keep it alive in kids. They are offered so many different sources of entertainment today that fishing can easily go by the wayside. He is also correct that when fisherman are gone, there will be no one left to care if there are any fish left in our rivers. However, if the cost of passing that torch is catching the last fish, then whats the point?

In closing, I think the real point here is that something needs to change. We can't keep on keepin on and expect things to get better. A hatchery system is necessary, most of our river systems have changed to dramatically to support historical fish runs, and that won't change as our area continues to grow at an exponential rate. The hatchery system needs to change from the one we're using now.

Also, Snake, just a heads up. Fisheral has been, done, and seen FAR more than you ever will when it comes to fishing. I've watched that guy fillet as many fish in a day as you probably caught in the last 10 years. It takes those experiences to make one realize how piss poor things are here, and why they should change. Wake up.

[snake]

I don't think that is a plan, as much as an idea guys. Fisheral's post stemmed from a conversation him and I had after my trip to the coast this last weekend. I fished the Clearwater Thursday, hooked 8 fish. Fished the Queets Friday, hooked 9 fish. Saturday and Sunday were basically nill. Just so happens that on the days we didn't hook hardly any fish, Indians were drift netting the Queets at the mouth of the Clearwater, and had nets set crisscrossing the river down from that.

The point is that if we give these fish a chance, a majority of the systems could sustain wild harvest. Puget Sound rivers are a different story. I've seen the Sky closed to catch and release for about 15 years now with limited recovery of that stock. No one really knows why but I hope they figure it out soon.

Hatcheries, if run with wild brood stock from the river systems they are on, could lend a huge helping hand in recovering basin specific stocks, just ask the Nez Perce, they nailed it with their fall chinook in Idaho.

Snake noted that fishing is a thing that is passed down from generation to generation. He's correct. You have to plant that seed early and keep it fed to keep it alive in kids. They are offered so many different sources of entertainment today that fishing can easily go by the wayside. He is also correct that when fisherman are gone, there will be no one left to care if there are any fish left in our rivers. However, if the cost of passing that torch is catching the last fish, then whats the point?

In closing, I think the real point here is that something needs to change. We can't keep on keepin on and expect things to get better. A hatchery system is necessary, most of our river systems have changed to dramatically to support historical fish runs, and that won't change as our area continues to grow at an exponential rate. The hatchery system needs to change from the one we're using now.

Also, Snake, just a heads up. Fisheral has been, done, and seen FAR more than you ever will when it comes to fishing. I've watched that guy fillet as many fish in a day as you probably caught in the last 10 years. It takes those experiences to make one realize how piss poor things are here, and why they should change. Wake up.

Thanks Great, I wish i had a nickel for every time i heard someone say how many more fish they have caught than everyone else.  I am glad you know exactly how many fish both fisheral and myself have caught.  I am not here to prove my knowledge or experience in the fishing industry.  I can assure you mine is more than sufficient to have this conversation.  As I stated before we could talk for hours about all the damage done.  Sadly it is too late to return all of our rivers to "wild" fish.  Hatcheries are our only hope to keep the heritage alive.  Yes they can improve their effectiveness, yes they can do things to incorporate more or these "wild" fish you speak of.  If seeing a fin gets you off maybe you can talk them into not clipping so many.  If you think the last 100 years was hard on salmon, my bet is the next 100 years will be even worse.

[7mmfan]

I think one thing needs to be cleared up. Theres a huge difference between "wild" fish and "native" fish. There are very few rivers in WA, maybe none, that have true "native" fish left. There are however lots of "wild" fish. These fish are a combination of native and hatchery stocks. Because of that, all the whackos that say we need to eliminate all hatchery's to save our "native" fish are flat out wrong. I do not think we should shut down hatcheries, I think our hatchery system needs reformed to utilize the "wild" stocks within the given river systems. Fair enough?

[snake]

Yes you are right. Agreed sir.

[7mmfan]

I see rivers in OR doing great things with broodstock programs. I've seen the Nez Perce and the Yakimas with chinook raise a generation of smolt from wild stock and allow them to spawn in the river. They've had enormous success with this. Why couldn't we implement a similar program in WA on our worst performers? Pull 20 wild fish from the system, and allow the returning fish to spawn in the river. They are wild fish that were given a helping hand.

Doing this would require a major shift in thinking for the state, a major investment in hatchery infrastructure, and a major shutdown of special interest groups.

I would also be fine not fishing for a few years if it meant that everyone else stopped fishing for a few years to allow some of our worst performing rivers to gain a foothold again.

[snake]

This is such a complicated subject.  Rivers with low returns are closed every year.  The tribe does not cooperate as I am sure you are aware.  They choke the river off anyway.  WDFW claims they work together with the tribe to set seasons and bag limits.  Its a joke.  If we get something good going there will be someone who will come along and capitalize from it and destroy it, tribal or commercial.  If hatcheries stop producing fish, the tribes and commercial fleets will not stop fishing.  It would be catastrophic.  Japanese, Russian and American interceptors target these fish in open ocean YEAR round, relentlessly, and they are getting more efficient every year.  There are so many sides to this conversation.  I am happy we have record runs clipped, wild, native, whatever.

[plugger]

It might be time to call them what they are, natural spawning fish not native fish. 

[Snappy]

Snake brings up a lot of other factors that effect our hatchery and native stocks and no one understands it more then those of us that fish the south sound areas. Not that I don't agree with so many peoples opinion that warmer waters, logging and pollution have not taken tolls on these stocks and will continue in the future but yes these other factors as Snake has pointed have only added to the problem specially with the decreases in hatchery production that the WDFW have been doing over the years. Who or what group would keep the many groups of people that intercept the spawning stocks from returning to their spawning grounds be it river beds or hatcheries in check if we the sportsman are taken out of the mix. As I hinted to in one of my earlier posts one additional factor that is being ignored by a lot of people and the WDFW is the increased number of predators that both the finned and non-finned stocks face in their life cycle. Yes we are talking about the now protected species that are not being kept in check a lot like the wolf and grizzly bears that many of you are very passionate about. Federal and state agencies need to reexamine these species protection status and how they are adding to over all salmon decline. Next how many of you take the opportunity to attend the North of Falcon meeting each year to voice your concerns for the fishing opportunities in the state and I am not talking about just the area you like to fish but for the whole state. How many of you are aware of the WDFW areas of concern and what actions they are planning?  What action they are planning for the hatcheries and what hatcheries are getting the most production verses others and why?  Right, these meeting are about as easy to make as the wolf meeting for the common person that is trying to scratch out a living these days. But when they see a large number of concerned people they do take note. So like the wolf meetings take the time get involve in these events also.

[snake]

All very true.  Yes they do listen! I have had great success even with a single phone call on numerous issues.

[fisheral87]

Fisheral87, you are a disease to sportsman everywhere.  You have no comprehension of what you are talking about. You need to get out more. 

I don’t believe we are so far apart on the subject for you to be so critical and I would prefer you were critical of my position rather than my person. We agree on predators and have some of the same values when it comes to heritage.

The only things the salmon have going for them unfortunately are the tribes and the sportsmen. 

The tribe needs the hatcheries so they can stretch a gill net 200 ft in front of the inlet and call it ceremonial, with their 150 hp yamaha.

So you can criticize the commercial tribal fishery, but I can’t? I understand that public involvement is critical and that’s why I’d be in favor of a catch and release fishery until the runs we more sustainable. As several people have said, not all hatchery programs are created equal. I think some of our operations could do better and that might mean closing some of the ones that aren’t cutting it either because of brood stock, operations, etc. with the end goal of not needing hatcheries.

Don't give me the " I fished here for 35 years BS"

I never said this. I did say that I have spent a lot of time fishing, and of that time a lot of my effort/money has been put towards catch and release fisheries.
 

It is obvious you live in a big city and don't get out much.  I never call people out like this but you need it.  Tell me, when everyone stops fishing commercially, recreationally, and tribally  for the next 20 years, who is going to be there to give 2 *censored*s about the fish?

I feel that the harvest of fish in the state is too high to give many runs much hope of recovery. So, as I said before, I would be willing to have a catch and release only fishery if it meant that there would be no commercial fishery in an effort to allow runs to get to a sustainable level where instead of subsidizing fisheries we were at a point of managing naturally reproducing fisheries. There are definitely additional challenges like habitat and economic productivity that have been put forward which I already admitted to not having solutions for.

  Becoming a good fisherman takes many years, from the first time you pick up a rod as a child to your last cast.  It is something you pass down to your kids.  Same with hunting.  It is a heritage passed down.  If we do not teach our children to fish they will not fish or care about the salmon runs. 

Couldn’t agree more, This past year  my wife and I were out fishing coho’s and happened to catch and release her first king salmon. I’ll never forget that experience. I hope to have similar experiences with my children as I hope you have with your family.

  Sorry to burst your bubble but the "wild" fish you speak of do not exist.  There is no perfect genetically superior fish that will fill our rivers when if we shut the hatcheries down.  We did the damage with dams and logging.  we could talk for hours about all the damage done to habitat.  We have to deal with what we have left.  Public interest is more valuable than you think.  Get a clue and shut up about closing the hatcheries.

  My terminology is probably wrong and I don’t understand biology well enough to understand the extent to which the genetics have been tainted, but I never said there was a perfect genetically superior fish that would solve our problems, I’m sorry if I gave you that impression. It is my opinion that genetically good fish reproducing independently in a stream are better (And cheaper long-term) than superior genetics out of a hatchery.

Al

[singleshot12]

In a perfect world hatcheries should of never evolved in the first place. But modern man has made irreversable damage to the eco-system. If we want fish to harvest in this over-populated modern world - - Then hatcheries are our only hope