2x2 Bucks only in Roosevelt, Harrington, and Steptoe

[muleyguy]

" My question to you was a simple one and it is a valid one as well. If last season you removed the 3 point min. you would have the exact "management technique" you are describing above. Under your superior "management technique" last year there would have been a hell of a lot more animals harvested thereby reducing the buck to doe ratio drastically and leaving even fewer bucks to mature for years to come, the outcome would repeat itself every year until a restriction would be necessary again."

I articulated the answer to your question very clearly, if you cannot understand, then I cannot help you.  The bottom line is that science is on my side.

"How about unit 270 in Montana for starters."

Unit 270 DOES NOT HAVE 3 pt minimum rules;  I understand that you think you are the "resident expert" on montana because you have found some private ground to hunt on in eastern montana, post your pictures here, and, get googled on by all the newbie WA hunters,  but, your question tells me that you know little, if anything about montana.  Either myself or members of my family have hunted montana since 1971;  I can assure you that I understand the rules and regulations quite clearly about montana.  I can guarantee you that I have more experience hunting in montana then you do, I have hunted extensively on both private and public in the areas you are hunting, in addition to many other areas.  My guess is that you have never even been close to hunting unit 270;  I have. 

You started this fight;  not me; you said you had all this research from other states indicating that 3 pt minimum rules work.  In your previous post, you implied that unit 270 in montana has  3pt minimum rules, and it DOESN'T.  It is great that you have found some private ground in montana to hunt, I applaud you, but that doesn't make you an expert........for you information, here are the rules, straight from the montana rules booklet, don't pull the "I am so smart, I hunt private ground in Montana" card on me:


Special Permit. Drawing only. Apply by June 2.
270-50: 100 permits. Permit must be used with a valid Deer A License.
Holders may not hunt Antlered Buck Mule Deer in any other HD.
 • Sep 06 - Oct 19 –  Antlered Buck Mule Deer. Archery Only Season.
 • Oct 26 - Nov 30 –  Antlered Buck Mule Deer.
 • Sep 15 - Oct 25 –  Antlered Buck White-tailed Deer.
 • Sep 15 - Nov 30 –  Antlered Buck Mule Deer.
 –  Either-sex White-tailed Deer. Only youth ages 12-15.

[huntnphool]

I articulated the answer to your question very clearly,

No you didn't, you avoided it so as not to look like a hypocrite.

Unit 270 DOES NOT HAVE 3 pt minimum rules

 I never said it did, it is my understanding that it had "antler restrictions" having talked with MFW&P a couple years ago. As of last year there were 24 states that had some sort of "antler restriction" I never said 3 point min.

you think you are the "resident expert" on montana

Another quote, and I never said that either.

you said you had all this research from other states indicating that 3 pt minimum rules work.

Wrong again, I never mentioned a 3 pt minimum rule. I said "the antler restriction has already been proven to work very well in other states."

My guess is that you have never even been close to hunting unit 270

Sorry wrong again, man this is getting repetitive.

"I am so smart, I hunt private ground in Montana"

Another quote and again I never said that either.

Its okay you couldn't answer the question, we all know the answer anyway

[bobcat]

huntnphool,

muleyguy answered your question more than once, in great detail, did you not read his posts?  Here is just a portion of one of them in which he answers the question you keep asking:

"Is it really your contention that if you restrict the season length, season timing and number of hunters without the 3 point minimum, that there will actually be fewer deer harvested in the 8 day general modern season than if you did have the 3 point min?"

once again, it is not "my" contention, it is the collective contention of biologists over many different states who have looked.  What the data shows is that if you get rid of the 3 pt minimum, and leave the season alone, as you suggested,  it will:

1.  have little or no effect on the buck to doe ratio (although it will the first year unless you put some restrictions in)

2.   and, over time, will result in MORE mature animals being in the population because it diffuses the harvest out over all the age classes instead of concentrating it into the older age classes.

it is a simple as that.  That is what the research and data show.  Once again, these are not "my" contention's;  it is the "contention" of research that has been done over many different biologist over many different states.

And another in which he provided a solution to what could be an excessive harvest in the first year following the elimination of the 3 point minimum restriction:

A good way to restore some of these 3 pt or better units back to any buck would be the following:  The first year  they should shorten the season to 5 days, and make it 2 pt or less.  This would "protect" all of the 2.5 yr olds, allowing them to become 3.5 yr olds; would protect all of the older age classes,  and, the shortened season would allow some of the 1.5 yr old bucks to make it through.  And, it would allow everybody to still go hunting.  The 2nd year following, they should restore it to the same season length and timing as before.  This will keep the buck to doe ratio's intact, or even slightly improve them, and put a tremendous amount of 3.5 yr old bucks into the population.  In a few years, my guess is that you would have a much higher number of mature animals in the population, and could probably expand the late season tags.

You just need to read his entire posts! Sure they are long but the answers to your questions are in there if you take the time to read through it.

[bankwalker]

i missed that second quote aswell.

thats actually a very good idea.

[boneaddict]

Owyhee is a cool experiment.  If you could ever draw that damn tag anyways.  Good place to shed hunt if you have long legs. 

[boneaddict]

A good way to restore some of these 3 pt or better units back to any buck would be the following:  The first year  they should shorten the season to 5 days, and make it 2 pt or less.  This would "protect" all of the 2.5 yr olds, allowing them to become 3.5 yr olds; would protect all of the older age classes,  and, the shortened season would allow some of the 1.5 yr old bucks to make it through.  And, it would allow everybody to still go hunting.  The 2nd year following, they should restore it to the same season length and timing as before.  This will keep the buck to doe ratio's intact, or even slightly improve them, and put a tremendous amount of 3.5 yr old bucks into the population.  In a few years, my guess is that you would have a much higher number of mature animals in the population, and could probably expand the late season tags.

You are not figuring in the dynamics of Washington again.... For instance when they closed the Alta unit for three years.  OH MAN I WOULD HAVE LOVED to have drawn then.  and...had it open to permit only, a compelling arguement for you Bobcat, except never being drawn for it.   It took ONE year for it to reach status quo after they opened it back up.  If not for the three point minimium, there wouldn't be very many deer.   Face it in this current environment, the three point restrictions is what is providing the escapement needed to make sure there is a buck to doe ratio.

[Skyvalhunter]

Hey I want to draw that Alta tag when the deer finally come back!!!

[boneaddict]

There were sure some bucks in there when they shut it down for three.  That was awesome.  I don't remeber now what time frame that was but whoever hunted during that.   

[WDFW-SUX]

Im not following the any buck situation............If we are alloud to kill forkies and spikes that = less mature bucks in the long run because every weekend warrior will just blast a 2 point every year and they will never grow into mature deer.  Most hunters in Washington just want a deer every year and don't care if its a spike.

The only way that any buck hunts work is if all hunting is by draw so the total harvest can be strictly controlled. 3pt min provides way more escapement + opportunity for the masses. Thats the reality of hunting in Washington.

[boneaddict]

Somedody finally cracked my code and understands what I am saying!!!!!

[GoldTip]

Once again, I will post the same thing I have said in previous threads regarding they three point minimum.  Look, we all seem to agree that Washington has some huge bulls in some area's due to the spike only limitation and the limited entry draw for large size bucks, right.  Now since Elk and Mule deer generally tend to breed in much the same way, they both essentially gather a harem, with smaller males surrounding the harem trying to steal a few here and there.  WDFW has set it up for elk this way so that the LARGEST bulls do the breeding, why do they have it set up so that the ONLY mule deer bucks we can kill without drawing a special permit are the ones we want doing the breeding.  Boneaddict, I certainly respect your opinion when it comes to outsized Mule deer, but I have to disagree with you on the 3 point minimum.  Mulies are much more like elk then they are like Whitetails when it comes to breeding, since we have proven that there are evidently enough spikes or bulls that never grow spike horns that they eventually get old and this is a place where a 400" bull is truly possible, why can't we apply this to Mule deer as well, having essentially ONLY the BIG mature 4 points and better around to do the breeding. 

The way I see it, the only true way to reverse this trend of Monster 2 points by using a 3 point minimum is to make the Mule deer season in December, after they have bred, and have a draw only doe season at the time it is now.  That way the big bucks are at least around to do some of the breeding come the rut, instead of pressured hard and hunted/killed prior to the rut.

Bone, you know I am not a wildlife biologist, but you do know what I do for a living, so know that I have a pretty good handle on at least Human genetics.  Trust me when I say this, I have never seen a NFL lineman come from a set of Parents who are both 5'9" and 160lbs.  The same holds true for animals.  If we want the bigger bucks to truly do the breeding, then we need to open it up the opposite way around to my thinking, ie; 2points or smaller and draw for does and 4point minimum for drawn buck tags.

[GrainfedMuley]

 Bigdog....I hunt just a few miles north of you in the Rosevelt unit north of Davenport in The Harker canyon area. 100% locked up private property. This year after I got my buck, I was bird dogging for my father, and I came accross a two point muley that was incredible. He was wider than his ears, my quess at least 23" wide, and he had at least 12" tines.  Last year I saw a very large two point also. I don't think this was the same buck though. Also, a guy camped about 100 yards away shot a very large two point opening morning and thought it was a three point. He immediatly called the land owner and then the game warden. This buck had at least 10" tines and one little tiny brow tine thatwas a quarter inch short of being legal. I hawled the buck back to camp with my quad. I know the game warden for Lincoln county very well. Every year sometime during the week he stops to have breakfast with us. Anyway, because the guy was honest and did the right thing by bringing him back to camp, the guy walked away with a $130.00 fine. The game warden told me that they have discressionary privleges and can give as light or as heavy of a fine that the law allows.

 After that rather long rap session, my point is I am seeing some very large two points in north Lincoln county. These are nice big bodied deer too.

 Not be nosey...are down in the bluestem area. I have seen some real nice bucks come out of there?

[bankwalker]

Im not following the any buck situation............If we are alloud to kill forkies and spikes that = less mature bucks in the long run because every weekend warrior will just blast a 2 point every year and they will never grow into mature deer.  Most hunters in Washington just want a deer every year and don't care if its a spike.

The only way that any buck hunts work is if all hunting is by draw so the total harvest can be strictly controlled. 3pt min provides way more escapement + opportunity for the masses. Thats the reality of hunting in Washington.

having it set as 2pt or better or any buck would not be for long. it would be set in place to get rid of all of the buck that have 2pt genes and wont get any bigger then being a 2pt.

[boneaddict]

2pt or better or any buck would not be for long

You do realize that does carry %50 of the gene package right.

[WDFW-SUX]