Dog Shopping TABOO.

[CoryTDF]

After having my comments deleted from another thread I decided to start my own. I have been a HW member since 2009 and a Lab owner my entire life. I have been active in AKC Hunt Tests and train regularly. I really love the breed. I also love this site. Many of the people here have been a great help to me. I would hate to see them fall victim to a bad breeding and possibly deal with the pain that I once had to deal with.

I notice that there is not a large wealth of knowledge out there about the dangers of irresponsible breeding. I myself once bought a dog from a newspaper and after 6K in medical bills trying to fix his genetic hip problems he ended up dying at 3 years old. Many of you will remember when I was trying to save my dog BOONE as many of my HW friends were going through that with me as I kept an updated thread.

So, is wrong to ask anybody who posts a breeding on an open forum to show proof of the clearances? I say absolutely not. This is a common practice at places like retrievertraining.net 

What do you guys think?

Here is a bit of information on it.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?92040-ofa-eic-cerf-cnm

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/clearances.html

 

[h20hunter]

I think it is up to the seller on how they word their ad and what they provide upfront. Obviously,  it would be in the best interest of the seller to provide that upfront but ultimately it is up to buyer and seller to discuss. Asking is perfectly fine with me if done in an non disparaging way that could detract from someone's ad.

 

[CoryTDF]

I think it is up to the seller on how they word their ad and what they provide upfront. Obviously,  it would be in the best interest of the seller to provide that upfront but ultimately it is up to buyer and seller to discuss. Asking is perfectly fine with me if done in an non disparaging way that could detract from someone's ad.

 

It would not detract from the add if it was in there to begin with. Also, who cares if it does? That information is vital to making sure that you are buying a healthy dog. If the seller forgets to add it or has not had the screenings then hopefully it hurts sales so much they quit breeding until they completed the necessary/responsible steps.   

[jackelope]

After having my comments deleted from another thread I decided to start my own. I have been a HW member since 2009 and a Lab owner my entire life. I have been active in AKC Hunt Tests and train regularly. I really love the breed. I also love this site. Many of the people here have been a great help to me. I would hate to see them fall victim to a bad breeding and possibly deal with the pain that I once had to deal with.

I notice that there is not a large wealth of knowledge out there about the dangers of irresponsible breeding. I myself once bought a dog from a newspaper and after 6K in medical bills trying to fix his genetic hip problems he ended up dying at 3 years old. Many of you will remember when I was trying to save my dog BOONE as many of my HW friends were going through that with me as I kept an updated thread.

So, is wrong to ask anybody who posts a breeding on an open forum to show proof of the clearances? I say absolutely not. This is a common practice at places like retrievertraining.net 

What do you guys think?

I don't think it's wrong at all to ask. Anyone shopping for a high dollar dog should know what to look for. Did you read the PM response I sent you before posting this?
The problem I had with your post wasn't what you asked. It was how you asked it. Also the guy clearly stated if there were any questions, send him a pm. For the sake of conversation, I can add the post you made that I deleted if you'd like, just for clarification. If you're trying to make a mod look bad, lets air it all out.
Just throwing that out there.

[JJB11B]

You should have to get a permit through the city, the county, the state, and federal govt. to bread animals, AND you should have to pay 40% tax on all money earned from selling puppies.

[CoryTDF]

After having my comments deleted from another thread I decided to start my own. I have been a HW member since 2009 and a Lab owner my entire life. I have been active in AKC Hunt Tests and train regularly. I really love the breed. I also love this site. Many of the people here have been a great help to me. I would hate to see them fall victim to a bad breeding and possibly deal with the pain that I once had to deal with.

I notice that there is not a large wealth of knowledge out there about the dangers of irresponsible breeding. I myself once bought a dog from a newspaper and after 6K in medical bills trying to fix his genetic hip problems he ended up dying at 3 years old. Many of you will remember when I was trying to save my dog BOONE as many of my HW friends were going through that with me as I kept an updated thread.

So, is wrong to ask anybody who posts a breeding on an open forum to show proof of the clearances? I say absolutely not. This is a common practice at places like retrievertraining.net 

What do you guys think?

I don't think it's wrong at all to ask. Anyone shopping for a high dollar dog should know what to look for. Did you read the PM response I sent you before posting this?
The problem I had with your post wasn't what you asked. It was how you asked it. Also the guy clearly stated if there were any questions, send him a pm. For the sake of conversation, I can add the post you made that I deleted if you'd like, just for clarification. If you're trying to make a mod look bad, lets air it all out.
Just throwing that out there.

You're funny. Get off your horse there bud. Not trying to make you look bad. I am trying to make anybody who would post dogs for $500+ without posting proper clearances look bad though. This was done to me once on the RTF forum as well. I fixed myself and was educated. I believe that is should be a forum requirement before posting. This forum makes you become a sponsor before you can even post. One might say that it's more about making a buck off a breeding than making sure that the breeding is legit.

[JJB11B]

Hurry and get it all off your chest before this thread gets locked too

[jackelope]

After having my comments deleted from another thread I decided to start my own. I have been a HW member since 2009 and a Lab owner my entire life. I have been active in AKC Hunt Tests and train regularly. I really love the breed. I also love this site. Many of the people here have been a great help to me. I would hate to see them fall victim to a bad breeding and possibly deal with the pain that I once had to deal with.

I notice that there is not a large wealth of knowledge out there about the dangers of irresponsible breeding. I myself once bought a dog from a newspaper and after 6K in medical bills trying to fix his genetic hip problems he ended up dying at 3 years old. Many of you will remember when I was trying to save my dog BOONE as many of my HW friends were going through that with me as I kept an updated thread.

So, is wrong to ask anybody who posts a breeding on an open forum to show proof of the clearances? I say absolutely not. This is a common practice at places like retrievertraining.net 

What do you guys think?

I don't think it's wrong at all to ask. Anyone shopping for a high dollar dog should know what to look for. Did you read the PM response I sent you before posting this?
The problem I had with your post wasn't what you asked. It was how you asked it. Also the guy clearly stated if there were any questions, send him a pm. For the sake of conversation, I can add the post you made that I deleted if you'd like, just for clarification. If you're trying to make a mod look bad, lets air it all out.
Just throwing that out there.

You're funny. Get off your horse there bud. Not trying to make you look bad. I am trying to make anybody who would post dogs for $500+ without posting proper clearances look bad though. This was done to me one on the RTF forum as well. I fixed myself and was educated. I believe that is should be a forum requirement before posting. This forum makes you become a sponsor before you can even post. One might say that it's more about making a buck off a breeding than making sure that the breeding is legit.

I'm 110% right there with you in everything you say.
I will add though, that this is not a dog breeding or selling website. This is a hunting forum. It's not our job to police the things people sell for quality, fair price, etc. We have some rules set in place that the owner put forth. It's my volunteer job to make sure those rules get enforced. One of them is no negative comments. A simple.... "Do the dogs have these XYZ certifications?" would have sufficed and I wouldn't have even blinked. I didn't even delete it until 4 other moderators agreed that it should be deleted.

[jackelope]

Hurry and get it all off your chest before this thread gets locked too

No reason that would happen at this point.

[BD1]

If it is about doing the right thing then why put a dollar amount on it i.e.$500+  A person needs to educate themselves before buying any animal. As far as what a breeder must provide in an ad...I agree with H2O...they are free to provide whatever information they want in an ad...from there it is up to the buyer to ask the questions and the seller to provide the answers. Just my 2 pennies

[Colville]

Should the forum then assume the responsibility of verifying those certs? What if they end up being fake? Should they require a car fax to post a car? Perk test for land? The forum owner would be insane to set standards for sales that it can then be sued for failing to properly enforce 100% of the time.

No. Adults ade capable of investigating, resaerching and making conclusions about the merits of a purchase without the forum acting as a filter.

When did we become helpless as a breed?

[h20hunter]

Oh-Bama did it. Just trying to bring a little levity. Our OP is clearly passionate which I applaud.  As a general forum the classified rules are pretty basic. Needing exacting details per add regardless of subject matter would be unenforceable.  Sites specific to breeding with more strict guidelines make sense.

[CoryTDF]

Should the forum then assume the responsibility of verifying those certs? What if they end up being fake? Should they require a car fax to post a car? Perk test for land? The forum owner would be insane to set standards for sales that it can then be sued for failing to properly enforce 100% of the time.

No. Adults ade capable of investigating, resaerching and making conclusions about the merits of a purchase without the forum acting as a filter.

When did we become helpless as a breed?

Go look at the RTF forum. It requires all of that regardless of the price of the dog. Some of the countries best dogs are bought and sold there. Your worry about lawsuits is silly. This forum makes sure that you pay to become a sponsor before you are even allowed to post a breeding. Trust me I have been through that here. If they are going to make you pay why not require that you have some certifications. The numbers that coincide with those certifications are easy to look up and verify by the buyers. It is a pretty simple thing to add really. 

What is the problem with adopting a very simple and effective procedure that other reputable and respected forums have been using for years? Heaven forbid a positive change was made to any part HW!

Guess that the 20 year old kid who never new to look for this stuff deserves to watch his dog drown during an EIC episode. Or as in my families case, we deserved to watch our dog go through painful surgeries and ultimately die because when I was 24 I didn't know about these things. Only stupid helpless people get duped by bad silver tonged breeders right? So we should not make any attempt at all to try and help those helpless idiots.... Your attitude is disheartening. 

[jackelope]

Should the forum then assume the responsibility of verifying those certs? What if they end up being fake? Should they require a car fax to post a car? Perk test for land? The forum owner would be insane to set standards for sales that it can then be sued for failing to properly enforce 100% of the time.

No. Adults ade capable of investigating, resaerching and making conclusions about the merits of a purchase without the forum acting as a filter.

When did we become helpless as a breed?

Go look at the RTF forum. It requires all of that regardless of the price of the dog. Some of the countries best dogs are bought and sold there. Your worry about lawsuits is silly. This forum makes sure that you pay to become a sponsor before you are even allowed to post a breeding. Trust me I have been through that here. If they are going to make you pay why not require that you have some certifications. The numbers that coincide with those certifications are easy to look up and verify by the buyers. It is a pretty simple thing to add really. 

What is the problem with adopting a very simple and effective procedure that other reputable and respected forums have been using for years? Heaven forbid a positive change was made to any part HW!

Guess that the 20 year old kid who never new to look for this stuff deserves to watch his dog drown during an EIC episode. Or as in my families case, we deserved to watch our dog go through painful surgeries and ultimately die because when I was 24 I didn't know about these things. Only stupid helpless people get duped by bad silver tonged breeders right? So we should not make any attempt at all to try and help those helpless idiots.... Your attitude is disheartening. 

This is not a dog forum. We don't have the country's best dogs for sale here.
The reason folks pay to become a sponsor to sell dogs here is simply out of respect for the breeders who do pay for sponsorship and have businesses as breeders. Why would we want to allow them to be undercut by others who don't pay to sponsor?
I don't want to discount what you're saying, but it's not our responsibility. Buyer beware. Do your due diligence before buying.

[Becky]

Should the forum then assume the responsibility of verifying those certs? What if they end up being fake? Should they require a car fax to post a car? Perk test for land? The forum owner would be insane to set standards for sales that it can then be sued for failing to properly enforce 100% of the time.

No. Adults ade capable of investigating, resaerching and making conclusions about the merits of a purchase without the forum acting as a filter.

When did we become helpless as a breed?

Go look at the RTF forum. It requires all of that regardless of the price of the dog. Some of the countries best dogs are bought and sold there. Your worry about lawsuits is silly. This forum makes sure that you pay to become a sponsor before you are even allowed to post a breeding. Trust me I have been through that here. If they are going to make you pay why not require that you have some certifications. The numbers that coincide with those certifications are easy to look up and verify by the buyers. It is a pretty simple thing to add really. 

What is the problem with adopting a very simple and effective procedure that other reputable and respected forums have been using for years? Heaven forbid a positive change was made to any part HW!

Guess that the 20 year old kid who never new to look for this stuff deserves to watch his dog drown during an EIC episode. Or as in my families case, we deserved to watch our dog go through painful surgeries and ultimately die because when I was 24 I didn't know about these things. Only stupid helpless people get duped by bad silver tonged breeders right? So we should not make any attempt at all to try and help those helpless idiots.... Your attitude is disheartening.

A dog forum requires certifications from breeders, hmm, probably because it's a dog forum solely based on dogs and dog breeding. Imagine that.

Sorry but you're having a huge issue on a Craigslist- style anonymous classified listing. It's not the forum owner's responsibility to pay money to research every person who posts in classified. There is trade counts review listings provided, there are site-ad fees for commercial sellers (not just dog breeders), and basic rules for everyone to follow.

If you want to educate, please do. Post up information all you want, but putting blame on the forum is completely misplaced. You're over exaggerating a lot. Obviously no one deserves bad things to happen to them, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

[JJB11B]

 How do you type a gernan accent? "Your Papers please"

[CoryTDF]

Should the forum then assume the responsibility of verifying those certs? What if they end up being fake? Should they require a car fax to post a car? Perk test for land? The forum owner would be insane to set standards for sales that it can then be sued for failing to properly enforce 100% of the time.

No. Adults ade capable of investigating, resaerching and making conclusions about the merits of a purchase without the forum acting as a filter.

When did we become helpless as a breed?

Go look at the RTF forum. It requires all of that regardless of the price of the dog. Some of the countries best dogs are bought and sold there. Your worry about lawsuits is silly. This forum makes sure that you pay to become a sponsor before you are even allowed to post a breeding. Trust me I have been through that here. If they are going to make you pay why not require that you have some certifications. The numbers that coincide with those certifications are easy to look up and verify by the buyers. It is a pretty simple thing to add really. 

What is the problem with adopting a very simple and effective procedure that other reputable and respected forums have been using for years? Heaven forbid a positive change was made to any part HW!

Guess that the 20 year old kid who never new to look for this stuff deserves to watch his dog drown during an EIC episode. Or as in my families case, we deserved to watch our dog go through painful surgeries and ultimately die because when I was 24 I didn't know about these things. Only stupid helpless people get duped by bad silver tonged breeders right? So we should not make any attempt at all to try and help those helpless idiots.... Your attitude is disheartening. 

This is not a dog forum. We don't have the country's best dogs for sale here.
The reason folks pay to become a sponsor to sell dogs here is simply out of respect for the breeders who do pay for sponsorship and have businesses as breeders. Why would we want to allow them to be undercut by others who don't pay to sponsor?
I don't want to discount what you're saying, but it's not our responsibility. Buyer beware. Do your due diligence before buying.

I might just have to go ahead and agree to disagree. I feel it is disrespectful to the Professional Breeders who are sponsors to allow people to advertise dogs that are not clear. Even more so when those breeders are being undercut because people are not aware of what they are potentially buying into.

Sorry I was trying to be helpful by suggesting that HW add one or two more sentences to "The Rules" in regards to selling dogs. I'm going to sit back at watch how this thread plays out now as I have said all that I need to say. If anybody reads this an would like advice on what to look for while shopping for a dog PM me and i'll be glad to help you out.   

[h20hunter]

Sounds like a good idea for a thread. Folks can ask questions about exactly what you are talking about,  get and give advice on everything from pedigree to picking out the right puppy from a litter. I know I would be asking those questions from those that are in the business of breeding and share your passion.

[CoryTDF]

Should the forum then assume the responsibility of verifying those certs? What if they end up being fake? Should they require a car fax to post a car? Perk test for land? The forum owner would be insane to set standards for sales that it can then be sued for failing to properly enforce 100% of the time.

No. Adults ade capable of investigating, resaerching and making conclusions about the merits of a purchase without the forum acting as a filter.

When did we become helpless as a breed?

Go look at the RTF forum. It requires all of that regardless of the price of the dog. Some of the countries best dogs are bought and sold there. Your worry about lawsuits is silly. This forum makes sure that you pay to become a sponsor before you are even allowed to post a breeding. Trust me I have been through that here. If they are going to make you pay why not require that you have some certifications. The numbers that coincide with those certifications are easy to look up and verify by the buyers. It is a pretty simple thing to add really. 

What is the problem with adopting a very simple and effective procedure that other reputable and respected forums have been using for years? Heaven forbid a positive change was made to any part HW!

Guess that the 20 year old kid who never new to look for this stuff deserves to watch his dog drown during an EIC episode. Or as in my families case, we deserved to watch our dog go through painful surgeries and ultimately die because when I was 24 I didn't know about these things. Only stupid helpless people get duped by bad silver tonged breeders right? So we should not make any attempt at all to try and help those helpless idiots.... Your attitude is disheartening.

A dog forum requires certifications from breeders, hmm, probably because it's a dog forum solely based on dogs and dog breeding. Imagine that.

Sorry but you're having a huge issue on a Craigslist- style anonymous classified listing. It's not the forum owner's responsibility to pay money to research every person who posts in classified. There is trade counts review listings provided, there are site-ad fees for commercial sellers (not just dog breeders), and basic rules for everyone to follow.

If you want to educate, please do. Post up information all you want, but putting blame on the forum is completely misplaced. You're over exaggerating a lot. Obviously no one deserves bad things to happen to them, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

Great point. It's broken lets keep it that way. RTF is a free forum BTW and does not charge for advertisements as long as the dogs are clear it is good to go. RTF has classifieds for all types of things trucks, cars, property, ext. It was simply an example of a site that is doing smoothing really great for a breed. This place never cases to amaze me. 
   

[Colville]

Who get's paid to receive, review and validate these records?  Nope, they'd have to be valid businesses, with legal products that aren't openly distasteful to the hunting community.  The rest is for the buyer.  If feedback dictates that a vendor had a poor product or process, I'd dump them.  There's just no good that comes from becoming the guarantor of the credentials or specs of all vendor products.

It's too bad that young people sometimes make poor decisions.  I wish there was some quick way that a person who wanted to buy a very expensive product could find out how to evaluate that product and see if there are independent credentials. One day someone will invent a way to "search" for this kind of information in a connected web of data.  More's the pity, some day. 

[JJB11B]

Should the forum then assume the responsibility of verifying those certs? What if they end up being fake? Should they require a car fax to post a car? Perk test for land? The forum owner would be insane to set standards for sales that it can then be sued for failing to properly enforce 100% of the time.

No. Adults ade capable of investigating, resaerching and making conclusions about the merits of a purchase without the forum acting as a filter.

When did we become helpless as a breed?

Go look at the RTF forum. It requires all of that regardless of the price of the dog. Some of the countries best dogs are bought and sold there. Your worry about lawsuits is silly. This forum makes sure that you pay to become a sponsor before you are even allowed to post a breeding. Trust me I have been through that here. If they are going to make you pay why not require that you have some certifications. The numbers that coincide with those certifications are easy to look up and verify by the buyers. It is a pretty simple thing to add really. 

What is the problem with adopting a very simple and effective procedure that other reputable and respected forums have been using for years? Heaven forbid a positive change was made to any part HW!

Guess that the 20 year old kid who never new to look for this stuff deserves to watch his dog drown during an EIC episode. Or as in my families case, we deserved to watch our dog go through painful surgeries and ultimately die because when I was 24 I didn't know about these things. Only stupid helpless people get duped by bad silver tonged breeders right? So we should not make any attempt at all to try and help those helpless idiots.... Your attitude is disheartening.

A dog forum requires certifications from breeders, hmm, probably because it's a dog forum solely based on dogs and dog breeding. Imagine that.

Sorry but you're having a huge issue on a Craigslist- style anonymous classified listing. It's not the forum owner's responsibility to pay money to research every person who posts in classified. There is trade counts review listings provided, there are site-ad fees for commercial sellers (not just dog breeders), and basic rules for everyone to follow.

If you want to educate, please do. Post up information all you want, but putting blame on the forum is completely misplaced. You're over exaggerating a lot. Obviously no one deserves bad things to happen to them, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

Great point. It's broken lets keep it that way. RTF is a free forum BTW and does not charge for advertisements as long as the dogs are clear it is good to go. RTF has classifieds for all types of things trucks, cars, property, ext. It was simply an example of a site that is doing smoothing really great for a breed. This place never cases to amaze me. 
   

I have been spending more time on bushcraftusa.com lately, less BS and more learning, very broad selection of materials to browse as well

[follow maggie]

I dont know if t should be required, or not, but it's defintely ok- and smart- to ask for them. If the seller posted the puppies publicly, ask the question publicly. Especially if thyre wanting breeder type money.

[JJB11B]

I dont know if t should be required, or not, but it's defintely ok- and smart- to ask for them. If the seller posted the puppies publicly, ask the question publicly. Especially if thyre wanting breeder type money.

I agree with this! why wouldn't you ask publicly, especially on a forum like this where we're supposed to be looking after each other....

[jackelope]

I dont know if t should be required, or not, but it's defintely ok- and smart- to ask for them. If the seller posted the puppies publicly, ask the question publicly. Especially if thyre wanting breeder type money.

I agree with this! why wouldn't you ask publicly, especially on a forum like this where we're supposed to be looking after each other....

Just for the record, there was never any question whether or not the questions should be asked. It was how the question was asked and the comments regarding that that caused 4-5 moderators to agree that the post should be deleted.

[Becky]

I dont know if t should be required, or not, but it's defintely ok- and smart- to ask for them. If the seller posted the puppies publicly, ask the question publicly. Especially if thyre wanting breeder type money.

I agree with this! why wouldn't you ask publicly, especially on a forum like this where we're supposed to be looking after each other....

Everyone is in agreement with both of these. Literally what everyone has been saying to do - ask questions, make threads on the dog board and educate. All great suggestions.

What we don't agree on is that every classified post needs to be vetted against credentials and certificates and essentially, if approved and posted, would be used as a silent guarantee by the forum owner of its validity. That would completely destroy any classified posting as there isn't enough time even if all moderators were working overtime to guarantee each and every site ad listing. Then, guess who would get blamed if something goes wrong.

I'm not disagreeing at all with what Cory is saying about information someone should ask before buying a dog, but it's misguided in already blaming the forum for a hypothetical future case of someone carelessly buying a dog and it dying. "Guess that the 20 year old kid who never new to look for this stuff deserves to watch his dog drown during an EIC episode".

[weathergirl]

I dont know if t should be required, or not, but it's defintely ok- and smart- to ask for them. If the seller posted the puppies publicly, ask the question publicly. Especially if thyre wanting breeder type money.

I agree with this! why wouldn't you ask publicly, especially on a forum like this where we're supposed to be looking after each other....

Everyone is in agreement with both of these. Literally what everyone has been saying to do - ask questions, make threads on the dog board and educate. All great suggestions.

What we don't agree on is that every classified post needs to be vetted against credentials and certificates and essentially, if approved and posted, would be used as a silent guarantee by the forum owner of its validity. That would completely destroy any classified posting as there isn't enough time even if all moderators were working overtime to guarantee each and every site ad listing. Then, guess who would get blamed if something goes wrong.

I'm not disagreeing at all with what Cory is saying about information someone should ask before buying a dog, but it's misguided in already blaming the forum for a hypothetical future case of someone carelessly buying a dog and it dying. "Guess that the 20 year old kid who never new to look for this stuff deserves to watch his dog drown during an EIC episode".

That was what I thought of as well.  If HW is responsible to make sure certain conditions are met (like disclosing health issues/clearances) then let's say one time something slips by and isn't caught.  I would be afraid that suddenly--if something bad happened like someone buys a puppy that has a genetic issue--that someone could strike out in anger at HW.  This stuff happens all the time.  I remember 15-20 years ago when I was an insurance agent, we used to call people to tell them they were late on their payment in order to get them to pay so their insurance wouldn't be canceled.  However, our practices had to change because as soon as a client would get used to being called routinely, they start to rely on it and stop taking the initiative themselves to find out when to make a payment.  Then the one time the agent didn't call, guess who is going to get the blame.  It's unfortunate that this is the way it is.

And by the way, I am a responsible breeder, so I know all of the clearances and hassles and weeks of pedigree analysis that we go through to make sure the puppies will be as healthy as can be.   In this day and age of the internet, it isn't hard for someone to check on health clearances and ask questions.  When people ask why our puppies cost so much ($1200-$1500) it is an opportunity to educate.   Anyway, is someone somewhere buying a puppy that has a sketchy background?  Well, I'm sure it happens.  Of course it happens.  But educated consumers ask questions.  Do I want to know the ingredients of my food?  Yes, that's why we hunt.  Do I want to know what the reviews are of a bow before I purchase it?  Of course.  Do people go out and buy bows without reading reviews?  Yes.  I know it is emotional because we are talking about PUPPIES, but it isn't HW's job to be a regulating agency in the way being discussed.  However, HW does an AWESOME job of providing a forum for consumers to educate themselves.  We can read how great wild meat is, how different bows compare, and what questions we should ask when we go to purchase a puppy. 

 

[CoryTDF]

It is suc ha simple fix that you guys are blowing so far out of proportion. RTF classifieds have been thriving for years and with great success. The requirement for them to post the information gives not legal fault to the forum. It's just a rule that has to be followed to post. If the buyer wants to check up on the numbers provided it is on them.

I never blamed this forum for killing any dogs. I was just saying that it would be nice to see some preventative measures. Good luck dog shoppers you will find no help here in HW.

Also the first responsibility is in the hands of a breeder not the buyer. The buyer should always check for themselves but the breeder should never breed without those clearances in the first place.

[jackelope]

Maybe it would be easier for us to just delete any and all dogs for sale on here.

[REHJWA]

There is a huge difference between Education and Regulation....

Any responsible dog owner is going to have the required health certifications done before the breading.
Asking in an open forum is fine.
I do not agree that we need more rules.
There are so many now that the only ones that benefit are lawyers.

It is the buyers responsibility to make sure they are getting what they are paying for. 

[jackelope]

There is a huge difference between Education and Regulation....

Any responsible dog owner is going to have the required health certifications done before the breading.
Asking in an open forum is fine.
I do not agree that we need more rules.
There are so many now that the only ones that benefit are lawyers.

It is the buyers responsibility to make sure they are getting what they are paying for. 

Well said.

[bobcat]

Should the hunting-Washington forum require that all rifles listed for sale be capable of 1 moa accuracy or better?

[Blackjaw]

It is also the somewhat the responsibility of the buyer to know what questions to ask. For example, there are different tests that should be done (not required to be) that are applicable to different breeds. i.e. Spaniels have different hereditary probs that labs.

[Bill W]

I'd bet some of you posters would feel different if you bought a pup for hunting and found out at about 18 months it had hip issues.   Our neighbor has one that hurts and limps after a morning of hunting.  I suspect it will have a short life because of that.

Dogs shouldn't be bred if one of the parents has elbows/hips and some other issues.

Warren Ireland and Lee Salmon certify their dogs.  I believe both are members on here.

[weathergirl]

I'd bet some of you posters would feel different if you bought a pup for hunting and found out at about 18 months it had hip issues.   Our neighbor has one that hurts and limps after a morning of hunting.  I suspect it will have a short life because of that.

Dogs shouldn't be bred if one of the parents has elbows/hips and some other issues.

Warren Ireland and Lee Salmon certify their dogs.  I believe both are members on here.

Of course we all agree with health clearances.  The question posed was if it is the responsibility of HW to make a rule that this info has to be posted.

[BD1]

I don't understand the hostility around this subject  When I bought my last lab (from Warren Ireland) this was one of many different websites I went to for advice, recommendations. I got many great ideas and leads that I checked into. In the end it was my responsibility to do my due diligence...after all we are talking about the internet...where anything can look real. I never looked at this or any other forum as a gatekeeper of information/facts in my search...it was simply a resource for gathering ideas.  It amazes me how quickly people turn on this site...a site that is free...its just strange.

[Rainier10]

It is suc ha simple fix that you guys are blowing so far out of proportion. RTF classifieds have been thriving for years and with great success. The requirement for them to post the information gives not legal fault to the forum. It's just a rule that has to be followed to post. If the buyer wants to check up on the numbers provided it is on them.

I never blamed this forum for killing any dogs. I was just saying that it would be nice to see some preventative measures. Good luck dog shoppers you will find no help here in HW.

Also the first responsibility is in the hands of a breeder not the buyer. The buyer should always check for themselves but the breeder should never breed without those clearances in the first place.

Okay, I can't take it any more, I'm in.

I don't think it is wrong to ask for the certifications or clearances to be posted.   I think it acceptable for the question to be asked if it is not posted in the original add. I don't know that we need a rule saying that you have to provide this information in the post.

I do know that we already have rules about how we are supposed to interact with other members, the classified section specifically says you can't make negative posts in someone's ad.

I also know that this all started because your interaction in someone else's classified add was not within the rules according to multiple moderators.

There was a nicer way to ask the question that you asked in the other thread.  A simple repost of the question after the first one was deleted would have cleared this all up.

Unfortunately you have chosen to dig your feet in and are asking a forum to comment on a different issue to make your point.

It wouldn't have been a big deal had you just modified your original question.  The big deal is all on you in my opinion.

Edit, I see that you did go back to that thread after you started this one and did ask the question in a manner within the rules. That is all it would have took to not make this a big deal.

[Jonathan_S]

Should the hunting-Washington forum require that all rifles listed for sale be capable of 1 moa accuracy or better?

Yes, only Tikkas

[birddogdad]

There is a huge difference between Education and Regulation....

Any responsible dog owner is going to have the required health certifications done before the breading.
Asking in an open forum is fine.
I do not agree that we need more rules.
There are so many now that the only ones that benefit are lawyers.

It is the buyers responsibility to make sure they are getting what they are paying for. 

Well said.

 
and this being said, if an issue does crop up, a reputable seller will step up too.. or public shame in this computer age is pretty much the norm...

[jackelope]

The reason the post was deleted was the way it came across. Not that the question was asked in the first place. There was a majority decision among 5 moderators to delete the post. Points have been made from both sides of the discussion. This thread is locked. If there are any further questions or issues, feel free to send any moderator a message. We're happy to help.