Muzzleloader Hunters

[Ridgerunner]

Anyone out there hunt with a muzzleloader?  I'm thinking about picking it up this year but have never done it.  It looks pretty fun.

[sisu]

I have been toying with this same subject. At first I was going to go traditional but after looking things over I am siding with the modern black powder gun with iron sites.

[bobcat]

I've hunted both deer and elk off and on over the years with muzzleloaders. I have a Lyman traditional (side lock) muzzleloader in 54 caliber and a Thompsen/Center Black Diamond in 50 cal.

IIRC, I've killed two deer and two elk with them. Most years I hunt the rifle seasons, but sometimes the early or late muzzleloader season fits my schedule better. This year I'm buying a muzzleloder westside elk tag, and probably a rifle tag for deer, but I may do muzzleloader for deer as well.

[billythekidrock]

I am considering a ML for this spring bear hunt.

One thing to remember is that inline MLs are not legal during ML seasons.
You can use inlines for bears all season as well as deer and elk during modern firearms and in firearm restricted areas.

[BnB]

Billy. Can't use a inline for bear? You thinking Idaho? Looked at the 2006 regs and they say any ML for bear.

[BnB]

Page 55 of last years regs. As long as original style caps fit on the nipple. No 209 primers. Idaho changed their ML regs for this year but back peddled a little on them. I might be wrong but I have not heard of any changes here in WA. Never have owned an inline, only sidelocks. At the risk of being flamed I wouldn't mind seeing some changes.   

[billythekidrock]

Billy. Can't use a inline for bear? You thinking Idaho? Looked at the 2006 regs and they say any ML for bear.

Read again...

You can use inlines for bears all season as well as deer and elk during modern firearms and in firearm restricted areas.

[BnB]

Are you saying you can't use an inline during Washington ML seasons? I'm old and might be missing something.

[billythekidrock]

You asked if you could/couldn't use them for bear and I posted "you can use inlines for bears all season".

Let me clarify my statement above. I was using inline in too broad of a sense.  First when I refer to inline I mean the 209 primer, rear loading, closed breach or scoped type. These are illegal for deer or elk during ML season. They are legal for bear all year long as well as for elk & deer during Modern firearm season in firearm restricted areas (as are shotguns).

And yes, inlines that use percussion caps on the nipple are legal, but they must load from the muzzle and be open to the elements.

Sorry for any confusion.

[BnB]

The way I read the regs, on page 13 of last years pamphlet it says, yes you can use a ML during modern deer but it must meet the the regulations on page 55. No 209 primers and caps must be exposed to the elements. Under firearm restriction area hunt, page 57, your ML must meet equipment restrictions. You cannot use the newer break open style that use 209 primers and have a scope for any hunts here in Wa. There are some exceptions for scopes but the average hunter can't use one. Don't want to start problems but I am pretty sure they are illegal, the newer break open ones, all the way around. I run into game dept officers in the Blues and around the Snake often and just for my own sake will ask them. They look like fun and might be tempted to get one but don't think they should be used during a ML season.

[BnB]

Should have said I might be tempted to get one if they are legal here.

[WDFW-SUX]

I went on a AHE elk hunt at the Julia butler hansen wildlife refuge and hunters were alloud to use any ML that they could find.  At least half of the hunters had sealed breach weapons that were using 209 shotgun primers.  The warden who administered the hunt said they were OK because the hunt was on federal land and being federally administered.  They were also aloud to use scopes.  You can use a smoke pole during modern season so long as you have a modern tag. I have seen it many times and been told that it was ok by game wardens and the folks on the phone at WDFW that lesser weapons were fair game.  There are a few exceptions like crossbows and snares for big game but for the most part they dont care what you use.

[bobcat]

I have always thought it was as Billy is saying, that any muzzleloader could be used during modern firearm season, but after taking a quick look at the regs, it seems that BnB makes a good point. The way it is written it DOES appear to say that muzzleloaders must ALWAYS meet the muzzleloader restrictions.

As BnB said, on page 13 for modern firearm deer season, it says "modern firearm, muzzleloader, and archery equipment must meet equipment regulations on page 55." It says the same thing on page 33 for modern firearm elk seasons.

For bears it says "hunters may use any lawful big game modern firearm, archery, or muzzleloader equipment."  So the question there would be, what is "lawful?" I would take that to mean that even for bears, muzzleloaders must meet the restrictions listed on page 55.

But, knowing that the rules in the regulation pamphlet are NOT the actual and complete laws, I think I would take a look at the WAC's and/or RCW's, and find out what the law really says regarding this. I suspect it is just as Billy says. But, to me it really doesn't matter, in the case where a rifle is not allowed, I would use a scoped shotgun with a rifled barrel, rather than a muzzleloader.

[BnB]

Bobcat. Thats the way I read. There might be other laws not in the pamphlet but I cannot imagine them  saying one thing and allowing another and not putting it in the regs. LOL, well I guess I can. Hey, if you really want a discussion how about a guy shoots a deer with a sealed breech, 209 primer ML and back at camp has the head off and his tag on the antlers. Game warden drives up. How many tickets?

[bobcat]

My guess would be none. My cousin has a co-worker who just started hunting the muzzleloader season a couple years ago. He went out and bought a T/C Encore. If you don't know, that is a sealed breach inline M/L with a 209 primer ignition. He got checked last year by a game warden, and nothing was said about the muzzleloader not meeting the requirements. The game warden even asked to see it, and the guy handed it to him, he looked at it and said nothing. Apparently, some game wardens do not know how to tell a legal muzzleloader from an illegal muzzleloader. And with the Encore, it should be obvious.   

[BnB]

Assuming the gun was not legal, you might get 3. Illegal weapon, illegal tagging and if he took the head off he had to leave evidence of sex attached. That's a good point about maybe some of the wardens are not up on the regs or maybe they are legal and I just missed it. Wouldn't be the first time.

[bobcat]

Sealed breech muzzleloaders with 209 primer ignitions are DEFINITELY illegal during muzzleloader season. No doubt about that. The only question that I now have is are they also illegal during modern firearm season (deer & elk) and bear season.

In your scenario, I don't see where there is three violations. I would say only one: the illegal muzzleloader. How did he tag it illegally? Because the tag was on the antlers? That's where I always put my tag.

You didn't say he did not leave evidence of sex attached. I would assume that if somebody removes the head, then he would have left evidence of sex on one of the hind quarters. But you're right, if he didn't do that, then that would be violation number 2.

[BnB]

Could be 3. The weapon. If you take the head off you must tag the biggest portion of the meat. Tag stays with the meat. At the processor, if you use one, and in your freezer. Page 59. There might be a good chance that if the head was removed and tagged, evidence of sex might not have been left. I always had put my tag on the antlers or through the ear if it was a cow or a doe. I was going on a hunt in Oregon I think it was, and saw that in their regs and just checked Wa and there it was. Don't know how long it had been that way but we had always tagged the head. I wonder if you could call the removed head  part of the carcass? Still tag has to stay with the meat.

[bobcat]

As long as you keep the head and the rest of the carcass in the same place, it doesn't matter where the tag is. I always leave it on the antlers, until I get it home.

[billythekidrock]

So I think I see what you are saying.
Maybe the regs mean "muzzle loader" as in the traditional sense..period. Even in modern, restricted or bear seasons.

Hhmm..
Well if I decide to ML for bear this spring I will be using a Thompson Center Gray Hawk in 50 cal. So there will be no probs, but I had considered buying an inline (209 Primer) for bear and firearm restricted areas. Not sure anymore.

[WDFW-SUX]

Im pretty sure you can use the 209 deal on any hunt that a modern rifle could be used.  I mean why the hell not its just a less efficient weapon and your not hurting anyone else???

[bobcat]

Im pretty sure you can use the 209 deal on any hunt that a modern rifle could be used.  I mean why the hell not its just a less efficient weapon and your not hurting anyone else???

I thought so too, but can you find where it says that anywhere in the regulations?

[WDFW-SUX]

WAC 232-12-051 Muzzleloading firearms. (1) It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm during muzzleloading seasons which does not meet the following specification for a muzzleloader. A muzzleloading firearm is loaded from the muzzle and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in muzzleloading firearms. A muzzleloading firearm has a single or double barrel of at least 20 inches, rifled or smooth-bored. Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion using original style percussion caps that fit on the nipple and are exposed to the elements. Shot shell and 209 primers are not legal.

" It is unlawful to carry or possess any firearm during muzzleloading seasons which does not meet the following specification for a muzzleloader"

If you are not hunting during a muzzleloading season it does not matter per the law above.

This law does not make any mention of Archery tackle during muzzleloader either it simply states if you use a firearm it must be such.

[bobcat]

I looked at that earlier today, and I did see where it says "during muzzleloader seasons."

But if you look at modern firearm deer and elk seasons, it says "modern firearm, archery, and muzzleloader equipment must meet equipment regulations on page 55."

Look on page 13 and page 33 in the big game pamphlet.

[bobcat]

This is from WAC 232-28-248:

FIREARM RESTRICTION AREAS


The firearm restriction areas listed below have been established by the Fish and Wildlife Commission. Centerfire and rimfire rifles are not legal for hunting in any of these areas.


In firearm restriction areas, hunters may hunt only during the season allowed by their tag. Archery tag holders may hunt during archery seasons with archery equipment. Muzzleloaders may hunt during muzzleloader seasons with muzzleloader equipment. Modern firearm tag holders may hunt during modern firearm seasons with bows and arrows, muzzleloaders or revolver-type handguns meeting the equipment restrictions or legal shotguns firing slugs or buckshot.

I don't see anywhere in there where it says muzzleloaders do not have to meet the muzzleloader regulations.

[billythekidrock]

Bobcat.. also notice where it states "revolver-type handguns meeting the equipment restrictions".
So the way I read that WAC is revolvers have to meet the restrictions for handguns, but MLs don't have to meet any equipment restrictions when hunting firearm restricted areas during modern firearm season.

I know the regs pamphlet we get it not a comprehensive nor complete listing of all the rules, but a little less "legalese" would be nice.

[bobcat]

Billy, yeah, actually I think I put in bold the wrong part of that WAC. The part you quoted is what applies to this discussion, but you need to look at the entire sentence:

Modern firearm tag holders may hunt during modern firearm seasons with bows and arrows, muzzleloaders or revolver-type handguns meeting the equipment restrictions or legal shotguns firing slugs or buckshot.

To me that is saying that a modern firearm tag holder may hunt during modern firearm season in a firearm restriction area with a muzzleloader that meets equimpment restrictions. Which, since it doesn't say otherwise, I would have to assume it is referring to the muzzleloader restrictions shown on page 55 of the big game regulations.

Just like in the same pamphlet it says for modern firearm deer and elk seasons a muzzleloader can be used but it must meet the restrictions on page 55. I'm not saying the WDFW really intends for this to be the case, but if you interpret the law strictly as it is written, it looks to me like to hunt with a muzzleloader it ALWAYS has to meet the muzzleloader restrictions. Maybe I will email the WDFW and see if I can get an answer.

[billythekidrock]

 Maybe I will email the WDFW and see if I can get an answer.

Good luck!
Over the last 2 years I have left 3 messages with Big Game/Fur Bearer and 2 messages with Trapper Education and have never even gotten a message back.

[WDFW-SUX]

WAC 232-12-047
Unlawful firearms for hunting. 
  (1) It is unlawful to hunt any big game with:

     (a) A fully automatic firearm.

     (b) A centerfire cartridge less than 22 caliber for cougar.

     (c) A centerfire cartridge less than 24 caliber for any other big game.

     (d) A shotgun, provided that a 20 gauge, or larger shotgun, using shells loaded with slugs or buckshot size #1 or larger, may be used to hunt deer, bear, and cougar.

     (e) A shotgun for any other big game, except that a 12 gauge or 10 gauge shotgun using slugs may be used.

     (f) A handgun that does not meet the following criteria: Have a minimum barrel length of four inches, per manufacturer's specification, and fire a centerfire cartridge.

     (g) Any rimfire cartridge.

     (2) It is unlawful to hunt game birds with a shotgun capable of holding more than three shells.

     (3) It is unlawful to hunt game birds or game animals, except bullfrogs, in a manner other than with a firearm, a bow and arrow, or by falconry, except persons with disabilities may use a crossbow with a special use permit as conditioned in WAC 232-12-054.

     (4) It is unlawful to hunt game animals or game birds with a shotgun larger than 10 gauge.

     (5) It is unlawful to hunt game birds with a rifle or pistol, with the exception of blue grouse, spruce grouse and ruffed grouse.


Makes no mention of inline ML's.  As long as it meets the other requirements it must be legal.

[Bubba]

Hi I am new to this forum and I have been hunting with a muzzleloader since 95 and having a great time.  I have taken deer, elk, hog and buffalo with mine. I shoot a  T/C black mountain magnum, they don't make them any more but it ia a great rifle. On the 3rd of May I will be in Shoshone Ihado for another hog hunt and on the 1st of December a buffalo hunt south of Bozeman, Mt.  If you have any questions I will be glad to help if I can.

[winchesterSX2]

black powder hunting is pretty fun. one of my hunting partners hurt there arm (we normally bow hunt). so we picked up a couple of thompson muzzle loaders, and it was a blast. it is damn close to archery. its a kick