Barrel question?

[Karl Blanchard]

Karl just turned me onto this thread 

I've been doing R&D on my carbon barrels with a composites engineer for close to 3 years now.  Whoever said that manufacturing processes of modern carbon barrels have the wrong fiber orientation and too resin rich is DEAD ON!

My barrels have a Rock Creek 5R Cut Rifled liner that doesn't get any thinner than .650 at the muzzle and weight about on par with a #3 sporter contour +/- 4 oz.

As far as the technology goes, I'll refrain from speaking of others and focus on my own barrels.  First up is fiber orientation.  Every layer of composite (notice i didn't say Carbon!) material on my barrel is a continuous piece from tennon to crown.  Each barrel as a single seam running the length of the barrel.  We also do everything we can with our prep work to ensure that the barrel steel doesn't slip or contract/expand at vastly different rates than the composites material.  Next come resin ratios... most carbon barrels have around a 65:35 Resin to Fiber ratio.  Resin is a great insulator and traps heat.  My barrels are in the 25:75 resin/fiber ratio.

We focus on two things with my barrels.  Rigidity (comes from better fiber orientation), and harmonics.  When you think of a graphine/carbon fiber fishing rod, it transfer vibrations incredibly well....  Thats the opposite effect you want with a barrel.  You want harmonic dampening not amplification/transfer.  Thus we don't use 100% carbon fiber.

Our barrels are also cured with no "Induced stress".  A very well known carbon barrel manufacturer at one point in time (I believe they still continue this practice) "caps" their barrel with a stainless barrel cap.  And they do it while inducing tension into the barrel. Engineering principles states that material under tension is more rigid.  But what happens to that tension when barrels heat up and the materials expand at different rates?  It creates an unpredictable reaction.

As far as carbon trapping heat.... that's a myth.  Formula 1 cars use CF brake rotors because it dissipates heat so much better than steel.  It's the resin ratio that is key!  My barrels kick off so much heat you get a mirage after 7-10 shots and that carbon will be hotter to the touch than the stainless barrel tennon around the chamber.  That's the biggest issue for me and using them in matches.  High volume shot strings and mirage is a bad combination.

I quit chasing the weight savings on carbon barrels awhile ago.  I could go thinner on contours without issue, but the fact of the matter is with a 7 lb base rifle weight, I can change my grip pressure and EASILY throw a round 1/2MOA sideways one direction or another.  The rifle itself is extremely accurate, accuracy is not a function of weight....  but light weight rifles are harder to shoot more accurately as a shooter.  If you want to bang animals at 750 and in, you're probably fine with a sub 9 lb well built hunting rifle.  Stretching it further than that and you better be on your A game!  I prefer a 9.5-10.5 lb gun for long range work.  Its worth the extra weight.... you pack 6+ lbs of spotter/tripod up the mountain to up your hunting ability, that extra 1-2 lbs for the added killing ability is well worth it.

Most of my carbon long range rifles end up 7-7.5 lbs base rifle weight with a muzzle brake and 26" barrel.

And building a steel barreled "long range" rifle that weights in at that 7 lb mark sucks!  Who likes to spend $3k+ on a gun that has a barrel that opens up from .5 MOA to 1.5 MOA after 6-7 shots?  If you're shooting long range, you need to be shooting a lot, and waiting 15-20 minutes for a sporter contoured barrel to cool down after a few shots is retarded...  I won't do it lol

Hope this helps some of you! 

Mike

  great post Mike!  Often times I think we absorb too much internet chatter and don't seek out real info from the real pro's who are figuring all this stuff out and making it work

[Karl Blanchard]

Mine is a trued up rem 700 action and it shoots in the .3 and I haven't even really dove into any serious load developement 

That's a sexy shooter for sure!

  thanks man, but what do you think of the rifle?   

[MichaelJ]

Guess I'll stay tuned. May have to pick one up for the next build

Sent you a PM.

I'm just here to help Karl   Lot of bad info out there and not all carbon barrels are equals!

Mike

[Karl Blanchard]

Guess I'll stay tuned. May have to pick one up for the next build

Sent you a PM.

I'm just here to help Karl   Lot of bad info out there and not all carbon barrels are equals!

Mike

  well I appreciate it.  I wanted to dive in but I'm just a knuckle dragging trigger puller with poor grammar.  Needed someone to drop some truth up in here!  I'm gonna copy and paste that post for future reference

[Magnum_Willys]

Been looking at carbon barrels for Lapua build to keep total weight under 10#.
Options include Fierce, Christensen, and Proof Research.   Talked to several leading builders who said they can't get proof barrels down to .5 moa.  Christensen's 1 moa rifle is $2995 but their .5 moa rifle is nearly double that. Proofs own .5 moa rifle is at least $1000 more than that.

I Can get proofs barrel via stockys now for $775.  Slap that on a deviant action And maybe you can put together a shooter?  As a hunter Im concerned with weight and first and second shot accuracy.  Carbon saves a couple pounds.   A 9.5# rifle w/optics isn't bad , an 11.5 # rifle is a beast !

Would like to find a .5 moa carbon option for under 4500 ?   

[Karl Blanchard]

Been looking at carbon barrels for Lapua build to keep total weight under 10#.
Options include Fierce, Christensen, and Proof Research.   Talked to several leading builders who said they can't get proof barrels down to .5 moa.  Christensen's 1 moa rifle is $2995 but their .5 moa rifle is nearly double that. Proofs own .5 moa rifle is at least $1000 more than that.

I Can get proofs barrel via stockys now for $775.  Slap that on a deviant action And maybe you can put together a shooter?  As a hunter Im concerned with weight and first and second shot accuracy.  Carbon saves a couple pounds.   A 9.5# rifle w/optics isn't bad , an 11.5 # rifle is a beast !

Would like to find a .5 moa carbon option for under 4500 ?

  the man to talk to is posting in this thread.  Shoot Mike at Hells Canyon Armory a message.  He is pumping out his own carbon barrels and they are next level.  He's right in your wheel house price wise, local, and is just a stand up human.  You can't go wrong

[Magnum_Willys]

Will do ! Thx

[Reidus]

MichaelJ, what you're saying is that you can build a 7lb gun that'll shoot 1/2 moa and do a 7-10 shot string with little to no affect on accuracy?
How does barrel life compare to a standard barrel?

[Reidus]

Mine is a trued up rem 700 action and it shoots in the .3 and I haven't even really dove into any serious load developement 

What caliber?

[hogslayer]

Been looking at carbon barrels for Lapua build to keep total weight under 10#.
Options include Fierce, Christensen, and Proof Research.   Talked to several leading builders who said they can't get proof barrels down to .5 moa.  Christensen's 1 moa rifle is $2995 but their .5 moa rifle is nearly double that. Proofs own .5 moa rifle is at least $1000 more than that.

I Can get proofs barrel via stockys now for $775.  Slap that on a deviant action And maybe you can put together a shooter?  As a hunter Im concerned with weight and first and second shot accuracy.  Carbon saves a couple pounds.   A 9.5# rifle w/optics isn't bad , an 11.5 # rifle is a beast !

Would like to find a .5 moa carbon option for under 4500 ?

I was hoping that Michael would find this.  My wife isn't on Hunt-WA so i can brag away!  I am also having Hells Canyon Armory build a custom for me ( actually 2).  I went with the Lone Peak Titanium action which saved a lot of weight.  It is the same price as a Defiance but half the weight and they are getting some really good reviews.  Ryan Avery just did a solid review on it on Rokslide.  What is really cool is the fact you can call Michael and ask him any questions about the process and what other things you might need.  Its been awesome.  And i came in a little less than you were thinking.....The hardest part is waiting.  Even though a 6 month turn around is pretty fast. 

[MichaelJ]

Been looking at carbon barrels for Lapua build to keep total weight under 10#.
Options include Fierce, Christensen, and Proof Research.   Talked to several leading builders who said they can't get proof barrels down to .5 moa.  Christensen's 1 moa rifle is $2995 but their .5 moa rifle is nearly double that. Proofs own .5 moa rifle is at least $1000 more than that.

I Can get proofs barrel via stockys now for $775.  Slap that on a deviant action And maybe you can put together a shooter?  As a hunter Im concerned with weight and first and second shot accuracy.  Carbon saves a couple pounds.   A 9.5# rifle w/optics isn't bad , an 11.5 # rifle is a beast !

Would like to find a .5 moa carbon option for under 4500 ?

Shoot me an email at HCARifles@gmail.com and I'll get you an estimate! I guarantee 1/2MOA accuracy and 7-7.5 lb rifle base weight. Honestly for a Lapua I'd build an 8-8.5 lb base rifle weight. You'll be much happier at the distances capable with that caliber! Defiance is currently 9 months out on actions, I build off a lot of Stillers and they're top notch! And they're in stock

Another great advantage to carbon barrels is you don't add much weight with LONG barrels! Could run a 28-30" barrel no problem and it will still have its balance point right at the recoil lug or close to it. They shoulder and balance great.

Lone Peak is great but they aren't doing anything with a lapua bolt face yet...

Mike


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[MichaelJ]

MichaelJ, what you're saying is that you can build a 7lb gun that'll shoot 1/2 moa and do a 7-10 shot string with little to no affect on accuracy?
How does barrel life compare to a standard barrel?

Barrel life will be similar to standard steel barrels. It dissipates heat great but the initial temps of powder ignition are the same and in a hunting gun you're not seeing super high shot strings anyways. Powder selection and how hot your load is is a much more deciding factor.

And absolutely. My barrels will open up from .3ish MOA to .75ish MOA when they get really warm (10+ shots) but they'll hold that .75MOA all day long.

Built a 280Ackley for a guy that ran a 20 shot group one after the other and it went right at 1MOA.... considering he shoots off a sandbag with no rearbag and factoring in shooter consistency that's pretty solid if you ask me.


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[Karl Blanchard]

MichaelJ, what you're saying is that you can build a 7lb gun that'll shoot 1/2 moa and do a 7-10 shot string with little to no affect on accuracy?
How does barrel life compare to a standard barrel?

Barrel life will be similar to standard steel barrels. It dissipates heat great but the initial temps of powder ignition are the same and in a hunting gun you're not seeing super high shot strings anyways. Powder selection and how hot your load is is a much more deciding factor.

And absolutely. My barrels will open up from .3ish MOA to .75ish MOA when they get really warm (10+ shots) but they'll hold that .75MOA all day long.

Built a 280Ackley for a guy that ran a 20 shot group one after the other and it went right at 1MOA.... considering he shoots off a sandbag with no rearbag and factoring in shooter consistency that's pretty solid if you ask me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  that individual is also a huntwa member. 

Mine is a trued up rem 700 action and it shoots in the .3 and I haven't even really dove into any serious load developement 

What caliber?

  300wsm

[theleo]

Karl just turned me onto this thread 

I've been doing R&D on my carbon barrels with a composites engineer for close to 3 years now.  Whoever said that manufacturing processes of modern carbon barrels have the wrong fiber orientation and too resin rich is DEAD ON!

My barrels have a Rock Creek 5R Cut Rifled liner that doesn't get any thinner than .650 at the muzzle and weight about on par with a #3 sporter contour +/- 4 oz.

As far as the technology goes, I'll refrain from speaking of others and focus on my own barrels.  First up is fiber orientation.  Every layer of composite (notice i didn't say Carbon!) material on my barrel is a continuous piece from tennon to crown.  Each barrel as a single seam running the length of the barrel.  We also do everything we can with our prep work to ensure that the barrel steel doesn't slip or contract/expand at vastly different rates than the composites material.  Next come resin ratios... most carbon barrels have around a 65:35 Resin to Fiber ratio.  Resin is a great insulator and traps heat.  My barrels are in the 25:75 resin/fiber ratio.

We focus on two things with my barrels.  Rigidity (comes from better fiber orientation), and harmonics.  When you think of a graphine/carbon fiber fishing rod, it transfer vibrations incredibly well....  Thats the opposite effect you want with a barrel.  You want harmonic dampening not amplification/transfer.  Thus we don't use 100% carbon fiber.

Our barrels are also cured with no "Induced stress".  A very well known carbon barrel manufacturer at one point in time (I believe they still continue this practice) "caps" their barrel with a stainless barrel cap.  And they do it while inducing tension into the barrel. Engineering principles states that material under tension is more rigid.  But what happens to that tension when barrels heat up and the materials expand at different rates?  It creates an unpredictable reaction.

As far as carbon trapping heat.... that's a myth.  Formula 1 cars use CF brake rotors because it dissipates heat so much better than steel.  It's the resin ratio that is key!  My barrels kick off so much heat you get a mirage after 7-10 shots and that carbon will be hotter to the touch than the stainless barrel tennon around the chamber.  That's the biggest issue for me and using them in matches.  High volume shot strings and mirage is a bad combination.

I quit chasing the weight savings on carbon barrels awhile ago.  I could go thinner on contours without issue, but the fact of the matter is with a 7 lb base rifle weight, I can change my grip pressure and EASILY throw a round 1/2MOA sideways one direction or another.  The rifle itself is extremely accurate, accuracy is not a function of weight....  but light weight rifles are harder to shoot more accurately as a shooter.  If you want to bang animals at 750 and in, you're probably fine with a sub 9 lb well built hunting rifle.  Stretching it further than that and you better be on your A game!  I prefer a 9.5-10.5 lb gun for long range work.  Its worth the extra weight.... you pack 6+ lbs of spotter/tripod up the mountain to up your hunting ability, that extra 1-2 lbs for the added killing ability is well worth it.

Most of my carbon long range rifles end up 7-7.5 lbs base rifle weight with a muzzle brake and 26" barrel.

And building a steel barreled "long range" rifle that weights in at that 7 lb mark sucks!  Who likes to spend $3k+ on a gun that has a barrel that opens up from .5 MOA to 1.5 MOA after 6-7 shots?  If you're shooting long range, you need to be shooting a lot, and waiting 15-20 minutes for a sporter contoured barrel to cool down after a few shots is retarded...  I won't do it lol

Hope this helps some of you! 

Mike

In your research have you played with the orientation of the spine of the wrap at all? I know the question is coming from a different world but I'd imagine if there was any truth about spine indexing arrows to increase accuracy that you might see it come into play here.

[Reidus]

Mine is a trued up rem 700 action and it shoots in the .3 and I haven't even really dove into any serious load developement 

What caliber?

  300wsm

I figured....great round!