Change the 24 caliber min in washington(added poll please vote)

[jay.sharkbait]

I wonder if there's any data that would prove a 223 caliber rifle will kill just as well as a 9mm Glock?

Are you in favor of removing all caliber and draw weight restrictions for big game hunting?

I am.

I think the responsibility should be on the individual.

[Bob33]

I wonder if there's any data that would prove a 223 caliber rifle will kill just as well as a 9mm Glock?

Are you in favor of removing all caliber and draw weight restrictions for big game hunting?

I am.

I think the responsibility should be on the individual.

I don't completely agree but think that's a more defensible position to take rather than changing the minimum from .24 to .22.

[JLS]

I’ve never seen statistically valid data that compares the effectiveness of .22 caliber centerfire rifles to larger calibers on big game. Perhaps it exists.

Everything being equal, it’s a generally accepted premise that larger bullets with more energy kill more quickly than smaller bullets with less energy. Of course, a well-placed smaller bullet will kill more effectively than a poorly placed larger bullet. “Everything being equal.”

The FBI studies effectiveness of handgun calibers. Do they conclude that smaller, lighter projectiles kill as well as larger, heavier projectiles?

Most, but not all states have minimum standards for firearms and/or archery equipment used for hunting. It’s only an assumption, but I suspect it is because of ethical concerns that insufficient equipment could result in more wounded game.

Switching to archery - can a 20 pound bow kill deer? Of course it can. Should all draw weight considerations be stricken as well?

Good questions Bob.

The FBI now recognizes 9mm as an effective self defense round for law enforcement agencies.  Weighing in all factors such as cost, recoil management, accuracy, etc., the cost/benefit of the 9mm makes it a legitimate choice.

Yes, bigger and faster bullets typically kill things better given that they are accurately placed.  However, smaller calibers are often easier to shoot accurately.  Double edged sword, and I would hazard a guess that a good many elk have been crippled with magnum cartridges.

Is a 40 pound compound bow more effective than a 40 pound longbow? What is the efficiency of a 30 pound compound bow relative to a 40 pound longbow? 

I fully understand that minimum requirements are a necessary evil, and not always a bad thing.  All that said, I think Washington's are not well thought out and could be improved.

The guy that shouldn't be out in the woods is a burden to ethical hunters regardless of what caliber of weapon he is carrying.  Apparently it's an issue too if he's home schooled.

[JimmyHoffa]

What would counteract the poor decision making as left to individuals?  A more rigorous hunter ed program?  Make it more like the European system?  Then you could ditch a lot of the stuff in the regs.

[bobcat]

I wonder if there's any data that would prove a 223 caliber rifle will kill just as well as a 9mm Glock?

Are you in favor of removing all caliber and draw weight restrictions for big game hunting?

No, the archery rules seem reasonable. But I do think it's ridiculous that a 9mm handgun can be used to hunt big game, but a 22-250 cannot.

If I didn't have my 223 WSSM I'd most likely be arguing along with many of you to keep the .243 minimum. It's just always been that way and seems to make sense since that's what we've always known. But you start reading up on other people's experiences with 22 caliber centerfires who hunt with them in other states, and you have to start thinking maybe the 223 is a good deer rifle. At least I did. And I used it in Wyoming not because it was all I had, but more for the extra challenge, just like some people want to hunt with a bow or a muzzleloader. It's also pretty darn nice when you shoot an animal and you can see the reaction when the bullet hits, because there's no recoil.

Again, a 22-250 is a great 200 yard deer cartridge. How far can you kill a deer with a 9mm Glock? It's legal, but the 22-250 is not.

[jay.sharkbait]

What would counteract the poor decision making as left to individuals?  A more rigorous hunter ed program?  Make it more like the European system?  Then you could ditch a lot of the stuff in the regs.

Poor decision making will always be there.

[boneaddict]

"When someone talks about a primitive weapon, they are usually referring to a bow or flintlock musket. However, this hunter gave new meaning to the term.

This guy takes the cake for killing a deer with the most primitive weapon that I’ve ever seen someone use: a rock.

As you can see, while extremely difficult, it is clearly possible to hunt a big game animal with nothing more than a rock."


Google it. It's on video

[Bob33]

I wonder if there's any data that would prove a 223 caliber rifle will kill just as well as a 9mm Glock?

Are you in favor of removing all caliber and draw weight restrictions for big game hunting?

No, the archery rules seem reasonable. But I do think it's ridiculous that a 9mm handgun can be used to hunt big game, but a 22-250 cannot.

Again, a 22-250 is a great 200 yard deer cartridge. How far can you kill a deer with a 9mm Glock? It's legal, but the 22-250 is not.

If the argument is that we already have inadequate standards for handguns and therefore should lower the standards for rifles to make them equally inadequate, I don’t believe it will convince many to make a change.

[Jonathan_S]

Are you saying that a 22-250 is equally inadequate to the 9mm pistol as a killing cartridge?

[boneaddict]

I think what he might be saying is just because the 9mm is a regulation (stupid one) that maybe we shouldn't  lower the standard of another

Setting the bar

[bobcat]

Here's some good reading...

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11630772/What_223_bullet_for_deer#Post11630772


Yes I think it's dumb that a .25 or 9mm handgun is legal to hunt deer, elk, and bear. But that's not why we should change the minimum rifle caliber from .243 to .223.

The only reason we need is that 223 will work and work well. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that. If a person owns a 223 caliber rifle and wants to use it to shoot a deer instead of using his 338 Ultra Mag, he should be able to.

[JimmyHoffa]

Are you saying that a 22-250 is equally inadequate to the 9mm pistol as a killing cartridge?

Their abilities to kill are probably not too far apart, the difference is more the method--.22-250 is more about energy from high velocity and 9mm would be more penetration from momentum.  I recall a thread earlier in the year where a fisherman with a 9mm in Alaska killed a huge brown bear trying to attack.  The yuge difference between the two is more about getting the bullet into the right place.  A .22-250 can shoot a dime at 200 yds rather consistently even from a novice shooter, I don't know too many people that could hit a dime at ten yards with a 9mm pistol routinely. 

[Jonathan_S]

I think what he might be saying is just because the 9mm is a regulation (stupid one) that maybe we shouldn't  lower the standard of another

Setting the bar

I can agree with that as a general argument but not with that example given. I guess I don't see it being that crazy that the regs authorize CERTAIN 22 centerfires by name.

[boneaddict]

Understand

[Curly]

The 9mm legality makes sense if it allows someone to dispatch game with a handgun.  But then why don't they simply allow use of knives or handguns as a legal means of dispatching game?