New Binos, please help!

[CHSNGSTLHD]

Ok, so I have narrowed it down a bit. Still on my list are:
Vortex Viper or Razor in 10 x 42
Zen Ray ED in 10 x 43
Minox HG 10 x 43
Cabelas Euros 10 x 42
or the Cabelas Steiner version 10 x 42

I have about $600 to spend but I dont necessarily need to spend $600.  Any thoughts? I know some you have really been impressed by the Zen Rays. Thanks! Eric

[popeshawnpaul]

You have listed a few good ones.  My choice would be the Vortex Viper 10x42.  The Razors are nice but a tad larger it seems and marginally better for the money.  The Vipers are the best bang for the buck around.  Lifetime warranty unconditional.  If you drive over them they replace them.  I love mine and have compared them to a lot of other binoculars.  Good stuff for about $400 from Cameraland.

Rem300, this might be the first time you and I have ever agreed on something...  Scary!   

[JBar]

From your list Vortex though I don't think you'll be able to get Razor's for 600. But I would spend the extra if you can and get the Razor's. Warranty   How can you beat unconditional ( except loss ) and transferable!

[remington300mag]

 I was just thinking the same thing!!! Little freaky......Oh well, Obama's mom was FAT! LOL (could I get more 2nd grade than that)

[CHSNGSTLHD]

I have heard from a few people that the Zen Ray is a "bit" brighter then the viper. Anybody look through the Zens?

[remington300mag]

I looked though Zens a while back.....I couldn't tell any difference in the brightness.... but I will say that Vortex is more clear!

[Steve C]

Well, I reviewed both the Zen Ray Zen ED and ZRS HD, 8x and 10x versions of both.  I also either own or have owned 8x42 and 10x42 Vortex Vipers.  The ZEN ED is a better glass than the Viper. For getting the best value for the money, the ZEN ED is the way to go.  Vortex is a fine outfit and has a top warranty, but the simple fact of he matter is they do not have anything to match the optics of the ZEN ED, which is in the Fury price range.  The Razor is very close, but still costs twice what you pay for the ZEN.

Anybody looking through the Zens "a while back", wasn't looking through the current stuff, which has only been available for a month.  The Vistas are just OK and can't play the same game as the ZEN and the current ZRS.

However, there is not a bad choice on your list.  I've had them all to my eye, and could happily use any one.  It has to suit you, not somebody else.

[bobcat]

The only bad thing about Vortex is they're made in China, if that matters to you. But they are a great value and the warranty is good. Vortex is an American company but all their optics are made overseas. 

[KillBilly]

Ok, so I have narrowed it down a bit. Still on my list are:
Vortex Viper or Razor in 10 x 42
Zen Ray ED in 10 x 43
Minox HG 10 x 43
Cabelas Euros 10 x 42
or the Cabelas Steiner version 10 x 42

I have about $600 to spend but I dont necessarily need to spend $600.  Any thoughts? I know some you have really been impressed by the Zen Rays. Thanks! Eric

The Zen ED are the Bee's Knee's
I am so impressed by them that I can't decide how to write a revies on them.

[bowhuntin]

The only bad thing about Vortex is they're made in China, if that matters to you. But they are a great value and the warranty is good. Vortex is an American company but all their optics are made overseas. 

I was under the impression that they were made here in the USA, but I guess that would make sense of why they sell them for so cheap.

[CHSNGSTLHD]

Steve, thank you for your in depth reviews both here and on other sites! I really appreciate your insight. I think I am leaning towards the Zen Ray ED's in 10x. One more question for you, does the zen have the locking diopter like the vipers? Thanks again!

[Steve C]

The ZRS HD has the locking diopter like the Viper.  The Zen ED does not.  However the diopter on mine has not shown the slightest tendency to move.

To clear up another point, the Viper and Razor are Japanese manufacture. 

[Jerbear]

I bought a pair of Zen Ray Vista 10x42 last month.  I have never had a pair of glasses with the clarity that these have.  You can spend more money if you want, I just don't know why you would.

[bobcat]

To clear up another point, the Viper and Razor are Japanese manufacture. 

OK, I wasn't sure about that. I know that Vortex Diamondbacks are made in China.

I bought a pair of Zen Ray Vista 10x42 last month.  I have never had a pair of glasses with the clarity that these have.  You can spend more money if you want, I just don't know why you would.

Where are the Zen Rays made?

[Steve C]

In the Vortex stuff, the Fury class downward are Chinese.  The Zen Ray stuff is Chinese.  Truth be told there is a reason for that;  the Chinese optics manufacturers will work with the optics companies they deal with to actually give the customer what the customer wants.  Want to change a little detail in the design, well it's far easier to do that with a Chinese company.  I've heard that from several optics companies.

[popeshawnpaul]

Vortex is a fine outfit and has a top warranty, but the simple fact of he matter is they do not have anything to match the optics of the ZEN ED, which is in the Fury price range.  The Razor is very close, but still costs twice what you pay for the ZEN.

Can you expand on this statement or is this opinion?  Also, do you work for ZEN or something that may bias your viewpoint?

[Steve C]

[quote author=popeshawnpaul link=topic=20716.msg239046#msg239046 date=1234720541
Can you expand on this statement or is this opinion?  Also, do you work for ZEN or something that may bias your viewpoint?
[/quote]

Chill out dude, that's my own opinion based on looking through and using lots of bonoculars over the years.  I do not work for Zen Ray, Vortex or any other optics company, and have no reason to promote or demote anybody's product.  The reviews I posted, I thought, made it clear enough that I owned both Vortex and Zen Ray Products.  What I post is my own opinion based on my own experience.

[bucklucky]

How bout a set of Burris Signature select 10x50s? I have a set for sell basically brand new   

[popeshawnpaul]

Chill out?  I think you took something the wrong way or out of context.   

I haven't read your "in depth reviews" on other sites as someone pointed out you do and that led me to believe you may promote one company or another.  No need to be offended by the question...  It was just a question.  From your statement on here it appears as if you knew some specific differences between the two brands and could tell us if there was a difference in the optics, coatings, etc.  For example, why does Vortex not have anything to match the optics of the Zen ED?  Is there a difference in construction or optics or did it just look better when you looked through them?

Am I missing something with the pricing here?  I looked at Zen ED prices and they quote $459 for the 10x43 and the Vipers are $449 in the 10x42 size.  That price is on the Zen ED website so I'm not sure if you can get them cheaper elsewhere.  Fury prices are much less at about $300.  I must be missing something?

[Steve C]

I'm far from offended.  I assumed you had read the reviews I have posted here on the ZEN and ZRS.  Bad assumption I guess.  Also I was not particularly clear when I said Vortex doesn't have anything to compete with ZEN ED, clearly the Razor does, just at almost double price, which I didn't say.  Zen Ray has an online discount that puts the ZEN ED to $350ish.  Now I also make no claim to be an expert, but I will say it's not just me who likes the ZEN.  There is also the Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED and the Hawke Frontier ED which are extremely similar to the ZEN ED, and both found their way to market before ZEN.  New Viper prices are over $500.

The chief thing with the price vs quality issue is that the Chinese Optics are getting better fast.  The Japanese companies will have to wake up pretty quick.  So right now, yes these less expensive binoculars are quite competitive with anything from the Razor clear on up.  That befuddles a lot of people, but it is the case. 

My 8x42 Vortex Viper was sold after I got the Promaster ELX, because I think the Promaster is a better binocular.  My Vortex Viper will probably not survive the 10x42 ZEN ED, because I think it is a better binocular.  The differences are not profound, they never really are in Viper and  ZEN class binoculars.  But right now if good images for the least amount of money are a concern, the ZEN offers the best option.  If you don't want Chinese, then you have the Viper and Razor.  A big issue is longevity, service, and warranty issues.  There really isn't much bad product these days in $200 or so up.

So, I'm not down on Vortex.  I have a 7x36 Diamondback and a 6.5x32 Raptor pre-ordered.  I also am casting a serious eye on the 8x32 Viper.  I was just trying to call the Zen Ray products like I saw them.
 

[ZRS-8x42]

Am I missing something with the pricing here?  I looked at Zen ED prices and they quote $459 for the 10x43 and the Vipers are $449 in the 10x42 size.  That price is on the Zen ED website so I'm not sure if you can get them cheaper elsewhere. 

Hi, Shawn, we offered additional discount for forum members. The discount code is "H-WA". This was discussed in the end of last year on a different thread. You probably didn't notice that since that thread is on the 2nd page of this forum. Sorry about the confusion.

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,15496.0.html

We are also running a FREE shipping promo for ZEN ED binoculars through this month.

Thanks

[CHSNGSTLHD]

I ordered a pair of the Zen Ray ED in 10 x 43. Can't wait to look through them. I will give you all an update after I receive them! Thankyou all for your input. Also, I used the "IFISH" discount on the site, $90 off. 

[popeshawnpaul]

That was the sort of insight I thought you could expand upon Steve.  Good job and I'll try them out.  I have not tried the new Zen binoculars and would like to try it out.  The biggest issue I've had with my Vipers is the eyecup design, not the optics.  It always seems to not be where I want them and they tend to move when you are hiking.  I have to adjust them to my eyes.  Funny enough, as I've used them and gotten lots of dust/dirt in the twist eyecups, they have become harder to twist.  This has helped in that they are more locked into where I want them because of the dirt.  Kind of wierd, I know.

[Elknut1]

 Which is the bow on the market today? Hoyt, Matthews, Bowtech, Parker, etc.? That's easy, it's the one you own! (grin) Optics are much the same way. Most hunters own one Brand of Optics, they may own 2 or 3 sizes but that's about it because of financial reasons! Doesn't mean there are not better Optics out there than what they own but they do have what they can afford!

  In mid-priced range Optics there are many Companies today that are very comparable to one another, hardly any will blow another out of the water. What one guy loves another wouldn't own & vice versa! Decent or respectable glass is just that, it means it's affordable! Price ranges vary in the mid-priced market because of glass quality, coatings & polishings. Don't think for a 2nd that any 250.00 to 700.00 Optic regardless of brand is equal or superior to more expensive European glass because it's not! Mid-priced glass in most cases can handle all of ones hunting needs & most of us blue collar workers can afford them, we can also expect them to perform well in nearly all hunting conditions. It really boils down more to what works, fits & feels good up to your eyes! A guy also looks for glass that doesn't give him eye strain, headaches or watery eyes with hours of use. Again, most mid ranged Optics offer this quality. Most all mid-priced glass comes with ED (extra dispersion) this is what eliminates most problems during extended use! ED removes aberrations & heat waves at longer distances.

  Now I'm a Vortex Dealer, I will tell you straight up that there's a difference between Leicas, Zeiss,  & Swarovskis type glass quality & Vortex glass. There should be they run 1000.00-1500.00 more depending on the unit. But is the difference worth the extra money? Only we as individuals can answer that, much depends on how deep our pockets are! (grin) Does this mean than such brands as Vortex, Zen-Ray, Burris, Nikon, Pentax, etc. cost hunters an animal yearly because they weren't using better glass? I doubt it. I know this hasn't applied to me or ones in our hunting camp.  We must be balanced in our purchases & what we need the Optics for, this is how I base my personal decisions. Of course Warranties are always a consideration as well, all companies have them but some are better than others. I will say that Vortex has an unconditional lifetime transferable warranty, I don't know of another that does this throughout the entire line! Stay with & use what works well for you!

  I have personally compared the Vortex glass to these 3 European companies mentioned as well as many others trying to see what the differences were, is it night & day, not hardly. This is why when I read topics as this Thread & guys say this one & that one was much better than this & that when the comparison is all amongst mid-ranged Optics it sorta makes me laugh when I think back to the comparisons I've made. If you are finding glass that is "much better" than the Viper or Razor with the same magnification & objective lens then you're being biased. The same would apply to an equal set of Nikons or Zen-Ray etc. I'll bet ya. (I've not looked through Zen-Ray)
  The reason for saying this is the Vipers & Razors when set on a tripod & compared to these top 3 Brands give away one thing, that's the low light capabilities, even the Vortex Company recognizes this & has told me personally. They are willing to live with this because the price difference is so great!  When these Optics are all setup & looked through at the same time you will see little to no difference after a solid hour of examination in good light conditions. You will see no difference either between the Razor & Viper that really sets them apart at this time, low light is the only thing that sets them apart. These are hard facts! ---BUT, let the light fade down to the last 10-15 minutes of light & the European glass will shine above all others! This is noticed early morning or late evening, other than that they all look darned good! Is that worth the extra money to you? Only you can answer that!!
  Now if you still feel that you have 300-500.00 dollar glass that excels above other mid priced glass then you're putting them on or above the 3 top glass companies of the world at a fraction of the cost. You are only fooling yourself if that's the case! When push comes to shove the European glass excels & the price reflects this!  Have a great day!

  ElkNut1

[Steve C]

For the record, let me re post this bit from the ZEN ED review I posted.

"Now I do not think either of these will pass a thorough professional optical exam with the same sort of scores as the alpha class.  We are talking about silver coated prisms vs. dielectric coated prisms, and probably technically better broadband multi coatings, so direct equality is not likely in the cards".

Now I try not to be in the habit of fooling myself.  I try not to fool anyone else either.  But, I can tell a Viper from a Razor without a tripod.  You're right the differences are slim.  You are also right that the differences are slim in the Razor and the top end glass. I have always tried to emphasize how close these new binoculars come to the top end, I have never said they are better.

The ZEN ED, Promaster ELX ED, the Hawke Frontier ED and the Vortex Viper are the only $500 or less binoculars I am aware of that have ED (extra low dispersion) glass.  You are right it's chief function is control of color aberration. It also helps with color rendition, making colors in the image more real.  Eliminating mirage is something it can't do.  Magnification magnifies mirage along with anything else. That's one of the reasons I like 8x.  Less mirage effect.

You say there is a straight up difference in the mid and upper price glass.  I agree, there damned well better be.  That stuff is also pretty overpriced.  Worth it certainly if you can afford it, or if you make your living with it, or if you have to have the feeling that you simply have the best.  The point is that there are a lot of people who either won't pay that much or simply can't. The point is any more you don't have to.  I'm not arguing the "you get what you pay for".  That only goes so far.  I'd never tell somebody a cheap bubble wrap was just as good as a Viper.  If they can afford the best, then why settle for the Viper.  But if you aren't flush with cash and still want quality, alpha class does not need to enter the discussion to get a very good binocular.

That quality gap closed significantly in about 1996 when Pentax figured out how to produce a decent phase corrected affordable binocular.  Those differences are getting slimmer all the time.  Now, there will always be something to be shown as better in the top glass.  But they have to be getting nervous when they see how close their lower priced competition is getting.  Swarovski is advertising an upgraded EL that looks like if they ever get it done will cost $4,000.  They say it has a perfectly flat field.  Looks to me like the current EL is plenty flat enough for half the price.

So are we biased in optics selections?  You bet we are.  I'm maybe biased in what I like.  If I like it I will say so, if I don't I may well say nothing.  You certainly showed a bias in what you determine you will be a dealer of.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It's what they call human nature.  If there was only one best optic, that's what we'd all have.  But there isn't and we don't.  But don't think for a second that because the top end glass is better, that it is as much better than what you have to pay for it.

So which is the best glass?  Well, its just like your example of what's the best bow.  Its the one you own.  Just get one that suits you, even if it's not the most expensive, learn how to use it and go tag out.

[Bowbender]

I can't afford an expensive glass, so the choice was easy. Thanks to Steve's review I bought the Zen-Ed's and couldn't be happier. Lotsa bang for the Buck!!!!!

[wsmnut]

I just recently had my own trial period with a set of Vipers and the Zen ED.  Both 8 x 43.  After a few days of both sunny, grey and twilight comparisons I kept the Zen's.  I liked the size and slightly lighter weight of the Viper, but I decided that the image was everything.  Not an expert at all but the Zen was better.

[CHSNGSTLHD]

Well, I got the Zens today and so far I am very, very pleased. I will put them to the test more over the next few days. Thanks guys for all the input. Eric

[Moose Eyes]

Extremely happy with my Euros!

[C-Money]

I am very happy with my Pentax 10x50's. They are clear and sharp. I have picked out bucks when family members have decided that there were no bucks in a group more than once. They cost me a little over $300, and they are worth every penny!

[bow-n-head]

This looks like a fun topic All I can say is look through as many as you can, side by side if at all possible. I am a simple man, the difference I usually see is the size of the blurry halo around the edge of the field of view. In your mid-range binos, 300-600$ I would really look at service and availability, probably the biggest difference. Now time to raise some blood presure Out of the three high end binos I wouldnt buy anything but SWAROVSKI I would compare the other two (leica and ziess) to your mid-range binos

[huntnphool]

Out of the three high end binos I wouldnt buy anything but SWAROVSKI

  +1

[boneaddict]

I'd have to agree.  I think Swarovski is the best of the best.  Until MY recession is over, I will be quite pleased with my new Zenrays.  Coming from Bushnells my WHOLE LIFE and a lot of game later, I feel like I own the moon.

[M_ray]

I've owned several different bino's over the years Bushnell, Burris, Bausch & lomb and now Luepold. I have only looked through Vortex Vipers a couple of times and never seen Zens so I can't tell you an opinion there but I can tell I'm not going to make another mistake on my next purchase. I'm not as happy as I thought I'd be with my Luepolds at low light, They are very clear glass for the money but I'm saving my pennys and it will be nothing but Swarovskis for me next time! Which I'm hoping will be before next season 

[bucklucky]

I've owned several different bino's over the years Bushnell, Burris, Bausch & lomb and now Luepold. I have only looked through Vortex Vipers a couple of times and never seen Zens so I can't tell you an opinion there but I can tell I'm not going to make another mistake on my next purchase. I'm not as happy as I thought I'd be with my Luepolds at low light, They are very clear glass for the money but I'm saving my pennys and it will be nothing but Swarovskis for me next time! Which I'm hoping will be before next season 

Ya, me too. Dont know if it will happen for me though. Maybee next year.

[Karl Blanchard]

I bought a pair of Vipers last year and was really happy with them.  Then I did something really stupid.  I looked through my boss's SLC's .  It was right before dark and what I thought was a mound of dirt was really a buck.  I am now saving for a pair of Swarovski's.  I have probably spent enough money on bino's in the last 12 years to have bought a High end pair. Save up the money, bite the bullet and then you will never have to buy a pair of bino's ever again. 

[woodswalker]

Several years ago on a javalina hunt in AZ I borrowed my partner's Swarovskis....HOOKED...I still need to get myself a pair. Up until then I had been using Bushnells and an OLD pair of Zeiss Kriegsmarine binocs from WWII (HEAVY)...I had my eyes OPENED....it was late in the day and I was trying to see under the trees to see if it if a quoatamundi (sp) or a javalina that was stirring things up...I couldnt see...my partner could...so I asked to borrow his glass...and could see clearly that it was NOT a javalina...

got to get me some....

[woodswalker]

I bought a pair of Vipers last year and was really happy with them.  Then I did something really stupid.  I looked through my boss's SLC's .  It was right before dark and what I thought was a mound of dirt was really a buck.  I am now saving for a pair of Swarovski's.  I have probably spent enough money on bino's in the last 12 years to have bought a High end pair. Save up the money, bite the bullet and then you will never have to buy a pair of bino's ever again. 

unless some bastid STEALS them...like my Zeiss Kriegsmarine binocs from WWII .....

[columbiaman]

I am happy with my zen-ray VISTA and ZRS. Being drooling over the ZEN. but need to save money for a spotter.