What are the laws actually for shipping a rifle?

[TeacherMan]

I have a couple rifles in the Spokane area I'd like shipped to my home in AK and I'm wondering do I actually have to ship from an FFL to an FFL or can I just have them taken apart and put in boxes? I'm sure this question as been beaten to death but in my searches it mainly brings up purchasing firearms online and shipping and these are firearms that I already own.

I'm wanting to ship from one residence to another... WA to AK

[Curly]

6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.

https://www.atf.gov/file/61721/download

Since it isn't a transfer, I don't think you need to involve an FFL.

[KFhunter]

FFL unless you're shipping to yourself.  Trigger locks a must.

[TeacherMan]

FFL unless you're shipping to yourself.  Trigger locks a must.

Shipping to myself... From one personal residence to another. ME to ME lol..

[KFhunter]

6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.

https://www.atf.gov/file/61721/download

Since it isn't a transfer, I don't think you need to involve an FFL.

That's the ATF rule, shippers can also apply their own rules IE: trigger locks, won't ship pistols etc.  This varies by shipper.

[bobcat]

Your dad has them? Have him ship them to himself at your residence.

[KFhunter]

You can drive them up too, through Canada, standard hunting rifles aren't an issue. 

Stop in the US side first before you cross into Canada, they'll give you a piece of paper that'll let you bring it back into the US.  Fail to do this and you could have them temporarily seized while you re-import them back via ATF.  Takes a long time.  Or you could fly them with you checked in baggage.

[TeacherMan]

You can drive them up too, through Canada, standard hunting rifles aren't an issue. 

Stop in the US side first before you cross into Canada, they'll give you a piece of paper that'll let you bring it back into the US.  Fail to do this and you could have them temporarily seized while you re-import them back via ATF.  Takes a long time.  Or you could fly them with you checked in baggage.

I do quite often I'm just wanting to work on a couple this winter. I'm finding that I have better materials available to me up in AK at a much better price.

[TeacherMan]

Your dad has them? Have him ship them to himself at your residence.

Since they are my guns cant he just put my name on them? Is there special paperwork he would need to fill out?

[jackelope]

Your dad has them? Have him ship them to himself at your residence.

Since they are my guns cant he just put my name on them? Is there special paperwork he would need to fill out?

I'm wondering how I-594 plays into this from a legal standpoint. If your dad has them in Washington, is he the owner and needs to do a transfer to you in AK?
Per 594, who is the actual owner? I understand Teacherman "owns" them, but how does I-594 play into this?
Teacherman could ship to Teacherman if Teacherman was on the shipping end and the receiving end... i.e. he's going  hunting in Colorado and is going to ship his guns ahead of time. But such is not the case here. Same goes for his dad, but his dad is not going to actually be on the receiving end.


My take on it is your dad needs to ship them to you via a FFL holder to be completely legal.

[Boss .300 winmag]

This is why they wanted I-594, so all the guns people own get accounted for BS.

You need to find out what the law actually says, I would not run my guns thru an FFL to ship to me. I would figurine out a legal way around it. 

[Bob33]

The requirements of I-594 are reflected in RCW 9.41.113

http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.113

Transfers between family members are exempt, if the transfer is a bona fide gift.

[KFhunter]

I think shipping the guns out of WA wouldn't be an issue, your biggest hurdle will be the shipper.  Who's taking possession of the guns in AK since you won't be there? 


FROM: TeachermanDAD WA

TO:  TeachermanDAD AK
C/O  Teacherman in AK


Teacherman can then take possession of the box (with ID) no FFL required for transfer between family. 

[Boss .300 winmag]

The requirements of I-594 are reflected in RCW 9.41.113

http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.113

Transfers between family members are exempt, if the transfer is a bona fide gift.

Well there you go, no FFL needed. Thanks Bob33. 

Take it to UPS and ship away.

[Boss .300 winmag]

I think shipping the guns out of WA wouldn't be an issue, your biggest hurdle will be the shipper.  Who's taking possession of the guns in AK since you won't be there? 


FROM: Teacherman WA

TO:  Teacherman AK
C/O  Teacherman's buddy in AK


Teacherman's buddy can then take possession of the box (with ID) and hold it until Teacherman gets there, Teacherman's buddy can't legally open the box - which constitutes taking possession of the firearms.

Where are you reading this senerio into the process?

I believe that teacher mans dad will ship to teacher man in AK.

[KFhunter]

 

guess I missed something?  I've been distracted.

modified it thanks Boss 300 winmag

[Bob33]

I think shipping the guns out of WA wouldn't be an issue, your biggest hurdle will be the shipper.  Who's taking possession of the guns in AK since you won't be there? 


FROM: Teacherman WA

TO:  Teacherman AK
C/O  Teacherman's buddy in AK


Teacherman's buddy can then take possession of the box (with ID) and hold it until Teacherman gets there, Teacherman's buddy can't legally open the box - which constitutes taking possession of the firearms.

Where are you reading this senerio into the process?

I believe that teacher mans dad will ship to teacher man in AK.

 

Shipping to myself... From one personal residence to another. ME to ME lol..

[jackelope]

The requirements of I-594 are reflected in RCW 9.41.113

http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.113

Transfers between family members are exempt, if the transfer is a bona fide gift.

Well there you go, no FFL needed. Thanks Bob33. 

Take it to UPS and ship away.

2 things.
1-Ship it via USPS. UPS sucks.
2-It's not all about I-594 because it's crossing state lines, so at that point it becomes federal.

I think shipping the guns out of WA wouldn't be an issue, your biggest hurdle will be the shipper.  Who's taking possession of the guns in AK since you won't be there? 


FROM: Teacherman WA

TO:  Teacherman AK
C/O  Teacherman's buddy in AK


Teacherman's buddy can then take possession of the box (with ID) and hold it until Teacherman gets there, Teacherman's buddy can't legally open the box - which constitutes taking possession of the firearms.

Where are you reading this senerio into the process?

I believe that teacher mans dad will ship to teacher man in AK.

 

Shipping to myself... From one personal residence to another. ME to ME lol..

I realize that for all intents and purposes, he's shipping it to himself and it probably doesn't matter much, but unless he's there to "actually do the shipping", is he really shipping to himself?
What would the ATF say to that question?
Really I don't care. I might or might not have done the same thing myself at one point in time...but I just guess for the sake of conversation, if a guy were to follow the letter of the law, how does it lay out?

[Bob33]

I realize that for all intents and purposes, he's shipping it to himself and it probably doesn't matter much, but unless he's there to "actually do the shipping", is he really shipping to himself?
What would the ATF say to that question?
Really I don't care. I might or might not have done the same thing myself at one point in time...but I just guess for the sake of conversation, if a guy were to follow the letter of the law, how does it lay out?

6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.

https://www.atf.gov/file/61721/download

[Boss .300 winmag]

Here you go.

http://americanshootingjournal.com/a-ups-drivers-suggestions-for-shipping-firearms/

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

[Rainier10]

I would love to know how 594 applies to this one.  Even if he is shipping it to himself, when he gives the package to USPS or UPS, at that point who has "possession" of the firearm?  Ownership hasn't changed but I would think possession has changed.

FYI 594 is dumb.  It will be interesting to see if it is ever tested in a court of law to the letter of the law.

[jackelope]

I realize that for all intents and purposes, he's shipping it to himself and it probably doesn't matter much, but unless he's there to "actually do the shipping", is he really shipping to himself?
What would the ATF say to that question?
Really I don't care. I might or might not have done the same thing myself at one point in time...but I just guess for the sake of conversation, if a guy were to follow the letter of the law, how does it lay out?

6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.

https://www.atf.gov/file/61721/download

I saw that. The question is, he's not shipping it. His dad is. So it's pretty much the opposite of the scenario posted in the description of the law. I'm not sure if you're saying it's legal or not legal.
His dad is shipping it to him. It's not arriving from him in care of anyone until he gets there, it's leaving from the care of someone else to him. For all intents and purposes, it might as well be me shipping a rifle to him unless there is an immediate family clause in the federal law.
 

[jackelope]

I would love to know how 594 applies to this one.  Even if he is shipping it to himself, when he gives the package to USPS or UPS, at that point who has "possession" of the firearm?  Ownership hasn't changed but I would think possession has changed.

FYI 594 is dumb.  It will be interesting to see if it is ever tested in a court of law to the letter of the law.

But 594 doesn't apply to this as it's his dad, and it's federal(crossing state lines).

[Rainier10]

I would love to know how 594 applies to this one.  Even if he is shipping it to himself, when he gives the package to USPS or UPS, at that point who has "possession" of the firearm?  Ownership hasn't changed but I would think possession has changed.

FYI 594 is dumb.  It will be interesting to see if it is ever tested in a court of law to the letter of the law.

But 594 doesn't apply to this as it's his dad, and it's federal(crossing state lines).

Technically he doesn't possess the firearm as soon as he gives it to the guy behind the counter at USPS.  It's not an issue in any other state because they don't have this law.

I can't give you a gun to take to my wife.  I can give a gun to my wife but as soon as you step into the loop it messes everything up.  Same thing should technically apply to the guy at the USPS counter and everyone that touches the package after that.

Would they really ever charge and convict someone for that type of violation?  I doubt it but "technically" I think they could.

[Bob33]

I would love to know how 594 applies to this one.  Even if he is shipping it to himself, when he gives the package to USPS or UPS, at that point who has "possession" of the firearm?  Ownership hasn't changed but I would think possession has changed.

FYI 594 is dumb.  It will be interesting to see if it is ever tested in a court of law to the letter of the law.

But 594 doesn't apply to this as it's his dad, and it's federal(crossing state lines).

Technically he doesn't possess the firearm as soon as he gives it to the guy behind the counter at USPS.  It's not an issue in any other state because they don't have this law.

I can't give you a gun to take to my wife.  I can give a gun to my wife but as soon as you step into the loop it messes everything up.  Same thing should technically apply to the guy at the USPS counter and everyone that touches the package after that.

Would they really ever charge and convict someone for that type of violation?  I doubt it but "technically" I think they could.

You are correct; there is no explicit exception for "transferring" a firearm to someone who will ship it for him.

FYI RCW 9.41.113 does apply to inter-state transfers, as long as either the transferor or transferee is in Washington.

"All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. "

[KFhunter]

it's a conundrum.

Dad is in possession now, assuming he had them prior to I-594 they're essentially dad's guns.  Since Teacherman has a residence in both states he can take possession in either state, since it's a family member he could transfer possession in WA then mail to himself in AK.  Or Dad could mail to himself in AK then Teacherman take possession there since in AK possession is 9/10's the law 

As long as the transfer of ownership doesn't take place while in transit, or as part of the transit  (mailing from one person to another) - ATF and FFL transfer rules doesn't apply.  You can "care of" someone though but the TO: and FROM: must be the same.


anyways that's my  take 

[TeacherMan]

Sounds like I'm just going to wait and fly with them, I can be patient lol.

[Boss .300 winmag]

These threads never turn out good, you guys are killing me.  :beatdeadhorse

Do you guys think this is the first gun shipped out of state since I-594.

It's not, so everyone that was shipped was illegal?

If an FFL ships to FFL, some joe blow other than an FFL had custody, possession of in transit, was that illegal, NO.

SO WHY WOULD IT BE ILLEGAL FOR HIS DAD TO SHIP HIM HIS GUN TO HIM IN AK?

It's legal for his dad to have possession of his gun according to I-594, the Feds say it's legal to ship, and AK doesn't have stupid I-594 law.

[KFhunter]

These threads never turn out good, you guys are killing me.  :beatdeadhorse

Do you guys think this is the first gun shipped out of state since I-594.

It's not, so everyone that was shipped was illegal?

If an FFL ships to FFL, some joe blow other than an FFL had custody, possession of in transit, was that illegal, NO.

SO WHY WOULD IT BE ILLEGAL FOR HIS DAD TO SHIP HIM HIS GUN TO HIM IN AK?

It's legal for his dad to have possession of his gun according to I-594, the Feds say it's legal to ship, and AK doesn't have stupid I-594 law.

I don't disagree, these threads are always cloudy because shippers aren't very consistent.  Federal and State regulations aren't the issue as I said in the first post, the problem is with the shipper.  The person behind the shipping counter doesn't always know the law either.

I don't see where we've differed in our advice.

[Boss .300 winmag]

I shipped some ammo this week, and the young lady at the UPS counter wasn't sure about it, till I told here that online sales shipped comes from either UPS, or FEDEX. Then she checked, and said your right let me package that up for you. Only weird thing is she said it had to be dropped off at thier shipping hub like 5 blocks away.

I bet most FFL shipping the shipper picks up the guns at the stores, or place of business so the shipping stores don't have much experience in it, but they can learn.

[Boss .300 winmag]

These threads never turn out good, you guys are killing me.  :beatdeadhorse

Do you guys think this is the first gun shipped out of state since I-594.

It's not, so everyone that was shipped was illegal?

If an FFL ships to FFL, some joe blow other than an FFL had custody, possession of in transit, was that illegal, NO.

SO WHY WOULD IT BE ILLEGAL FOR HIS DAD TO SHIP HIM HIS GUN TO HIM IN AK?

It's legal for his dad to have possession of his gun according to I-594, the Feds say it's legal to ship, and AK doesn't have stupid I-594 law.

I don't disagree, these threads are always cloudy because shippers aren't very consistent.  Federal and State regulations aren't the issue as I said in the first post, the problem is with the shipper.  The person behind the shipping counter doesn't always know the law either.

I don't see where we've differed in our advice.

Shipper as UPS/FEDEX, or person tacking it to the shipper?

[jackelope]

These threads never turn out good, you guys are killing me.  :beatdeadhorse

Do you guys think this is the first gun shipped out of state since I-594.

It's not, so everyone that was shipped was illegal?

If an FFL ships to FFL, some joe blow other than an FFL had custody, possession of in transit, was that illegal, NO.

SO WHY WOULD IT BE ILLEGAL FOR HIS DAD TO SHIP HIM HIS GUN TO HIM IN AK?

It's legal for his dad to have possession of his gun according to I-594, the Feds say it's legal to ship, and AK doesn't have stupid I-594 law.

Personally, I don't think the legality of it has anything to do with I-594.
The question I was trying to get to the answer was, by the letter of the law can his father ship the gun in the mail to him without involving an FFL?

[jackelope]

I shipped some ammo this week, and the young lady at the UPS counter wasn't sure about it, till I told here that online sales shipped comes from either UPS, or FEDEX. Then she checked, and said your right let me package that up for you. Only weird thing is she said it had to be dropped off at thier shipping hub like 5 blocks away.

I bet most FFL shipping the shipper picks up the guns at the stores, or place of business so the shipping stores don't have much experience in it, but they can learn.

Pretty sure that legally ammo is supposed to have some sort of ORM-D label on it. Maybe Yorketransport could answer that for sure.

[Boss .300 winmag]

I shipped some ammo this week, and the young lady at the UPS counter wasn't sure about it, till I told here that online sales shipped comes from either UPS, or FEDEX. Then she checked, and said your right let me package that up for you. Only weird thing is she said it had to be dropped off at thier shipping hub like 5 blocks away.

I bet most FFL shipping the shipper picks up the guns at the stores, or place of business so the shipping stores don't have much experience in it, but they can learn.

Pretty sure that legally ammo is supposed to have some sort of ORM-D label on it. Maybe Yorketransport could answer that for sure.

Yep, that's thier problem.  . That's what they get paid for.

[KFhunter]

I shipped some ammo this week, and the young lady at the UPS counter wasn't sure about it, till I told here that online sales shipped comes from either UPS, or FEDEX. Then she checked, and said your right let me package that up for you. Only weird thing is she said it had to be dropped off at thier shipping hub like 5 blocks away.

I bet most FFL shipping the shipper picks up the guns at the stores, or place of business so the shipping stores don't have much experience in it, but they can learn.

Pretty sure that legally ammo is supposed to have some sort of ORM-D label on it. Maybe Yorketransport could answer that for sure.

correct - must have ORM-D  and can only be shipped domestically.  Sorry AK/HI no can do.

[Boss .300 winmag]

I shipped some ammo this week, and the young lady at the UPS counter wasn't sure about it, till I told here that online sales shipped comes from either UPS, or FEDEX. Then she checked, and said your right let me package that up for you. Only weird thing is she said it had to be dropped off at thier shipping hub like 5 blocks away.

I bet most FFL shipping the shipper picks up the guns at the stores, or place of business so the shipping stores don't have much experience in it, but they can learn.

Pretty sure that legally ammo is supposed to have some sort of ORM-D label on it. Maybe Yorketransport could answer that for sure.

correct - must have ORM-D  and can only be shipped domestically.  Sorry AK/HI no can do.

Quiz time, I know why. Do you?

[KFhunter]

Of course, I'm a hazmat coordinator / technician.

[Boss .300 winmag]

Of course, I'm a hazmat coordinator / technician.

And?

[KFhunter]

49 C.F.R. § 172   <-- it's all in there 

[Boss .300 winmag]

49 C.F.R. § 172   <-- it's all in there 

Uggghh.

It's because if the plane carrying it decompressed at altitude it becomes very unstable, so it needs to be packaged special. So you can airship but you have to be licensed to do it.

You can ship ammo this way to AK & HI. See link below.

https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/packaging/guidelines/ammunition.html

[quadrafire]

Playing Devil's advocate. How would they know you were shipping a firearm if you didn't declare it?
Packaging a hand gun would be easy. You could disassemble a long gun and it would package pretty compact.
Just wondering if you could skirt the carrier shipping concerns??
Are all packages run through x-ray?

[Boss .300 winmag]

Playing Devil's advocate. How would they know you were shipping a firearm if you didn't declare it?
Packaging a hand gun would be easy. You could disassemble a long gun and it would package pretty compact.
Just wondering if you could skirt the carrier shipping concerns??
Are all packages run through x-ray?

If it was lost in transit and you put in an insurance claim, and didn't declare it, that could cause problems. That would be a gamble I would not take. 

But yes if you broke it down they probably would be none the wiser.

[quadrafire]

Playing Devil's advocate. How would they know you were shipping a firearm if you didn't declare it?
Packaging a hand gun would be easy. You could disassemble a long gun and it would package pretty compact.
Just wondering if you could skirt the carrier shipping concerns??
Are all packages run through x-ray?

If it was lost in transit and you put in an insurance claim, and didn't declare it, that could cause problems. That would be a gamble I would not take. 

But yes if you broke it down they probably would be none the wiser.

My luck an ATF official would personally deliver it to my door if I tried that 

[mountainman]

Quoting laws and cutting and pasting RCWs really doesn't matter one bit.  The bottom line is you have to use a shipper to ship a firearm.  That shipper will have rules he operates under.  If you don't follow those rules you don't ship.  So pick your shipper, see what his requirements are and decide if you sill ship or not.  Pretty simple really. 

simple as that! learn their requirements, follow them, no muss no fuss

[jackelope]

Playing Devil's advocate. How would they know you were shipping a firearm if you didn't declare it?
Packaging a hand gun would be easy. You could disassemble a long gun and it would package pretty compact.
Just wondering if you could skirt the carrier shipping concerns??
Are all packages run through x-ray?

Before I-594, you could mail a rifle via the USPS within state lines and it was totally legal. USPS didn't give any crap about it and you didn't have to disassemble it and hide it sneakily. Handguns had to go to an FFL but rifles it was totally legal to mail it as long as they didn't cross state lines.
Now 594 is a thing, and mailing them to someone else is no longer a thing.

[Bofire]

Read the original post There is no Dad involved it is from him, owner to owner in a different state, his residence to his residence. There is nothing legal involved. ship em.
Carl

[jackelope]

Read the original post There is no Dad involved it is from him, owner to owner in a different state, his residence to his residence. There is nothing legal involved. ship em.
Carl

Your dad has them? Have him ship them to himself at your residence.

Since they are my guns cant he just put my name on them? Is there special paperwork he would need to fill out?

[Bofire]

I hold with my post, from owner to owner, they are his guns. who takes them to UPS makes no difference. even tho Dad was never mentioned I n the original post and I have no idea how or why Dad got into this

[quadrafire]

Playing Devil's advocate. How would they know you were shipping a firearm if you didn't declare it?
Packaging a hand gun would be easy. You could disassemble a long gun and it would package pretty compact.
Just wondering if you could skirt the carrier shipping concerns??
Are all packages run through x-ray?

Xray...just that simple.  Shipped a firearm firearm (long gun) to a private FFL in Ohio.  They caught it in chicago and it took three months to unravel the undeclared firearm.  Not worth it.

Uggg...........
You don't know how many times I've thought about a
Slight of hand for
A handgun or 3. Guess it's a good thing that temptation didn't get me