bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls

[wooltie]

Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned.   Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....

I'll probably pick up some of that remover.  I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush.  Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush.  The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.

Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?

That is the copper remover I am currently using and it is aggressive on copper and seems to be easy on barrels.  I have worked on guns belonging to others that took forever to get clean down to the bore and once clean they were bright and shiny.   On older guns that were used before non-corrosive ammo bores will frequently never get to a shiny state.  They look dark even though clean, but it is surprising how well a lot of dark bores have shot once clean.

I ordered that cleaner.  Went to the range today.  Stopped shooting after 6 rounds of hornady ELD-X because only 2 rounds made it on the paper at 100 yards.  This was the shoot, clean, shoot, clean approach.  The lands coppered up of course, and the grooves were a little brown.

I won't shoot it again until the bore is shiny clean.  This rifle was manufactured about 3 years ago, so it's newer and has seen modern ammo.

It's weird how all of the sudden the dang thing had a hard time keeping on paper.  Nothing else has changed in my setup.

[JDHasty]

Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned.   Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....

I'll probably pick up some of that remover.  I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush.  Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush.  The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.

Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?

That is the copper remover I am currently using and it is aggressive on copper and seems to be easy on barrels.  I have worked on guns belonging to others that took forever to get clean down to the bore and once clean they were bright and shiny.   On older guns that were used before non-corrosive ammo bores will frequently never get to a shiny state.  They look dark even though clean, but it is surprising how well a lot of dark bores have shot once clean.

I ordered that cleaner.  Went to the range today.  Stopped shooting after 6 rounds of hornady ELD-X because only 2 rounds made it on the paper at 100 yards.  This was the shoot, clean, shoot, clean approach.  The lands coppered up of course, and the grooves were a little brown.

I won't shoot it again until the bore is shiny clean.  This rifle was manufactured about 3 years ago, so it's newer and has seen modern ammo.

It's weird how all of the sudden the dang thing had a hard time keeping on paper.  Nothing else has changed in my setup.

I have seen this happen with solid copper bullets more than any others.  But it happens with the really old Partitions too and when it starts to copper up it is only a couple shots before it will start to strip the jackets and at that point it is hard to hit a paper plate at 100 yards.

[wooltie]

Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned.   Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....

I'll probably pick up some of that remover.  I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush.  Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush.  The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.

Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?

That is the copper remover I am currently using and it is aggressive on copper and seems to be easy on barrels.  I have worked on guns belonging to others that took forever to get clean down to the bore and once clean they were bright and shiny.   On older guns that were used before non-corrosive ammo bores will frequently never get to a shiny state.  They look dark even though clean, but it is surprising how well a lot of dark bores have shot once clean.

I ordered that cleaner.  Went to the range today.  Stopped shooting after 6 rounds of hornady ELD-X because only 2 rounds made it on the paper at 100 yards.  This was the shoot, clean, shoot, clean approach.  The lands coppered up of course, and the grooves were a little brown.

I won't shoot it again until the bore is shiny clean.  This rifle was manufactured about 3 years ago, so it's newer and has seen modern ammo.

It's weird how all of the sudden the dang thing had a hard time keeping on paper.  Nothing else has changed in my setup.

I have seen this happen with solid copper bullets more than any others.  But it happens with the really old Partitions too and when it starts to copper up it is only a couple shots before it will start to strip the jackets and at that point it is hard to hit a paper plate at 100 yards.

I've never shot all copper bullets. Always interlocks or a bonded bullet. Before shooting the lands looked kinda brown but you could see silver starting to poke through. This picture was taken after the first shot, after cleaning. The copper is quite evident whereas before the lands just had a shade of brown to them.

[Jolten]

Do a micrometer check on the bullets and the rifling lands. Something isn't adding up here. It shouldn't be that fouled with copper after 1 shot

[wooltie]

Copper is gone.

Bore tech cu2 copper remover is amazing stuff.

[Magnum_Willys]

Copper is gone.

Bore tech cu2 copper remover is amazing stuff.

  Glad its working for you.  I just use the regular Boretech Eliminator now but for tough stuff its a great goto. 

Now see if groups are any better   Gotta shoot at least one fouling shot to clear barrel otherwise first shot will be 30-40 fps slower with the lube in there usually.

[wooltie]

Copper is gone.

Bore tech cu2 copper remover is amazing stuff.

  Glad its working for you.  I just use the regular Boretech Eliminator now but for tough stuff its a great goto. 

Now see if groups are any better   Gotta shoot at least one fouling shot to clear barrel otherwise first shot will be 30-40 fps slower with the lube in there usually.

Well glad to know it was ME so far...

First 5 shots grouped larger than MOA, though 3 of the 5 were touching.  Shots 9-11 were MOA close enough, and shots 10-11 were touching. 

I would shoot, clean with Butch's/wet patches/then dry.  After 5 shots I cleaned with the Boretech CU2.  Next four shots same as the first 5.  Then, last three were back to back, amount 2-3 mins between shots.

I noted that Butch's was removing copper as evident by the blue patches.  I never got the blue patches to go away after a shot -- the blue would just minimize to light traces created from the patches tracing the lands.  Dunno what that means, other than there was still copper in the barrel.

I read somewhere that the idea is to break in the barrel so that carbon gets on the lands and prevents the copper from accumulating on the lands. 

I don't -- each shooter seems to have an idea of what works well for them.  But I do suspect that an aftermarket SS barrel vs a factory barrel behave differently.

For now I'm just going to keep the thing clean and continue shooting, and just monitor performance.

Thanks everyone.

[JDHasty]

I'm glad it was the copper causing your issue.  That Bore Tech copper solvent is what I use on my 300  Wby now. 

[Magnum_Willys]

I would fire lap that rifle.  If you send me 15 bullets I can rollem in the compounds and send em back to you.  You load the three sets of 5 at minimum load charges and fire each one cleaning well between sets.  Regular, medium, and fine grit.  Be shocked if that doesnt make your cleaning issues dissappear.

[wooltie]

I'm going to clean the bore again and see how it shoots at the range next. 

The lands have a smooth, uniform layer of copper on them now, after the dozen or so rounds from a few days ago.  The copper covers the entire land--top, side, and a small section of the bore adjacent to the side of the land.

I don't know what that means -- if copper should accumulate like that, or if that's the barrel, of if there's still copper on the lands and keep accumulating more each time I shoot it.

I'm looking into getting the barrel hand lapped.  My buddy had his done and says the smith time is rather inexpensive. 

[wooltie]

I described my problem to a 'smith who said that the barrel is rough, which is why the lands are brown and no copper remover will get that brown stuff out.  I'll try JB next, and may fire lap the barrel (I'm just starting to hand load.)

On a positive note, I shot my other rifle today--same caliber, same ammo, same benchrest setup, same brand stock, same brand lapped rings, same cleaning routine.

This barrel has maybe 20-30 rounds down it, so I did a proper break in.  All shots were MOA or less, some were touching.  After 8 shots I had walked the scope over to center.  8th shot was dead center.

So I don't think it's me; I think the barrel is just jacked up and that's why it won't group at all.  If I can get it clean, and it won't stop coppering up fast, then I'll just replace the barrel.

[Magnum_Willys]

Yup try firelap then replace.

[wooltie]

JB non-embedding compound removed the brown coloring from the lands.  The lands were black, same as the grooves, but I can see silver on the edges/corners of the lands.

I shot the rifle, cleaning w/Butch's after each shot, but the lands developed a sheen of copper after only a few shots--like the entire land is covered in orange.

My A-Bolt II has seen at most 50 rounds and the lands and grooves are still silver.  I see next to no copper on the lands after shooting this rifle.

I guess I can work the JB in this rifle to see if I can get the lands to return to silver, but I don't know if that will happen.  I use an old bore brush covered in a patch w/JB, going back and for 50-100 times.

I think the bore just has issues.

[JLS]

I would fire lap it or sell it.  I had a Douglas barrel that fouled like this.  It took a LOT of firelapping to smooth it out, but it was a heck of a shooter when I finished.

[CAMPMEAT]

Your scope might been having issues inside that you can't see. Who made the scope ? Try another scope. Mine did the same exact thing as you're describing.