470 Nitro Express pet loads

[yorketransport]

 Earlier today I was consulting with Dirk McFiddlesticks, man of mystery and protector of the atheist sherpas, about the 470 Nitro Express. McFiddlesticks is currently working up some ammo for a Butch Searcy double rifle in 470 N.E.. The owner of the rifle is, clearly, a man of discriminating tastes which is why he entrusted McFiddlesticks with the task of loading ammo for what is roughly a $40K rifle.

When the subject of load data came up, it was a no brainer that the best source of data would be Butch Searcy himself since he did build the rifle and regulate the barrels for a specific load. The problem is that the suggested load data sounded off. When compared to the reasonably mild data used for the 375 H&H barrels for the same rifle, the data for the 470 NE sounded extremely hot. After a brief back and forth, we decided to fact check the data from Butch Searcy. Like we suspected the numbers didn't track. McFiddlesticks is currently waiting for confirmation of the powder and charge weights before proceeding.

This whole adventure brought up the idea of what is everybody else's pet loads for the 470 NE. Specifically, using the 500gr Barnes TSX bullet. First hand experience is preferred, but anecdotal experience will work too. We're really interested in how much Blue Dot should be used when making reduced recoil plinking loads.

[cardinalguns]

Depends on what constitutes a pet load. Your mention of Blue Dot and reduced recoil loads doesn't really square with Barnes 500 gr TSX slugs.

If it were me looking for reduced recoil loads, I would cast a bunch of 400-465 grain bullets with gas checks, then venture into Trail Boss or some other bulky powder which burns quickly. Why use expensive Barnes bullets for plinking loads?

Working up a dangerous game load, and using the Barnes bullet you mentioned, why not consult a loading manual or the Barnes website?

The .470 NE is a very common DGR caliber and surely there is lots of load data (starting and maximum) available.

Just my 2 cents....

[yorketransport]

The blue dot reference goes back to an old post here recommending blue dot as a good powder for reduced loads in a 30-06. Using that powder in a case the size of a 470 NE equates to assembling a destructive device/grenade.

The reality is that we were debating wha'is more trustworthy, load data from a proven source lik the Barnes load book sitting on my bench or the data provided by the world renown and highly respected  gun builder. When Shawn Carlock tells you load data for the 338 Edge it would typically be wise to listen carefully. When the guy who builds custom DG rifles for a living tells you load data used to regulate the barrels you naturally want to listen. In this particular situation I wouldn't use the info given by gun builder if I were hot rodding my own gun. I definitely wouldn't do it while loading ammo for a very successful attorney's gun!

As for plinking with the TSX, McFiddlesticks believes that we should train how we operate. It's the unspoken code of the atheist Sherpa operators. W

[b23]

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of plinking with a 470 NE and 500gr bullets.  

I know, different kind of plinking but you have to admit, it does sound a little funny. 

[AWS]

Loading for a double rifle is a whole different world than loading for a single barreled rifle.  If the data from the maker sounds off it is a good ideal to double check with the maker to see what load he regulated the barrels with when he built the gun.

The statement "we should train with what we operate with" goes completely out the window with a double rifle.  Finding a light/plinking/training load that shoots to point of aim with both barrels is going to be a serious search unless you are going to practice with only one barrel, even then it will be tough to use the sights that the rifle came with.

you might want to go here for help with 470 light loads.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=4&page=1

Good luck on  your search.

PS Remember that SS Savage action I bought from you years ago.  I rebarrelled it with a 25-204 barrel I had built in 2004, great deer rifle spitting out 100gr Partitions a 2800 fps and 75gr at 3200 fps.  It's headed to NV for 10 days of coyote hunting.

[yorketransport]

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of plinking with a 470 NE and 500gr bullets.  

I know, different kind of plinking but you have to admit, it does sound a little funny. 

I've only had the opportunity to shoot a couple rounds through a 470 NE and it would get old pretty fast. If somebody else is paying for the ammo though I'll shoot that sucker till my vision goes blurry!

Loading for a double rifle is a whole different world than loading for a single barreled rifle.  If the data from the maker sounds off it is a good ideal to double check with the maker to see what load he regulated the barrels with when he built the gun.

The statement "we should train with what we operate with" goes completely out the window with a double rifle.  Finding a light/plinking/training load that shoots to point of aim with both barrels is going to be a serious search unless you are going to practice with only one barrel, even then it will be tough to use the sights that the rifle came with.

you might want to go here for help with 470 light loads.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=4&page=1

Good luck on  your search.

PS Remember that SS Savage action I bought from you years ago.  I rebarrelled it with a 25-204 barrel I had built in 2004, great deer rifle spitting out 100gr Partitions a 2800 fps and 75gr at 3200 fps.  It's headed to NV for 10 days of coyote hunting.

I forgot about that action! That little 25-204 is a smoking little round.

The "plinking" loads are actually full power loads. My understanding is that the rifle's owner is already very familiar with the rifle so he likes to just practice with the full power stuff. It's the full power loads recommended by the rifle builder that make me nervous. They'd make sense with a conventional 500gr lead core bullet, but they'd be a 15% over load when compared to the data from Barnes.

I consulted with McFiddlesticks some more today about this issue and it sounds like the gun's owner (not a reloader) is willing to wait until the load data can be verified. When McFiddlesticks talks, even the most confident men listen carefully! That and I don't think he wanted to turn his custom gun into the world's most expensive pipe bomb!

[carpsniperg2]

What powder and weight is recommended? I could compare it to a few books I have.

I agree when someone else is covering the $ to shoot them it's fun lol. Most the time it's me unless I'm shooting my buddies 585 HE. Then it's just not fun lol. My Lott hits half as hard as that thing.

[Alchase]

I am still trying to wrap my head around buying a 470 Nitro Express, then looking for, wait for it, ............reduced loads 

That would be like buying a 1000 HP McLaren, and putting it in "ECO" mode 

 

[Bob33]

I've never shot one and don't plan to. In fact I had to use Google to even see what one looked like. I think this is a reduced load.

[Alchase]

I've never shot one and don't plan to. In fact I had to use Google to even see what one looked like. I think this is a reduced load.

And a Double at that!

I love doubles, I will probably never be in position to own one, but they are beautiful rifles.

[b23]

Yorke, if you could I'd love to see a pic of this thing.  Doubtful I'll ever own one but they definitely peg the needle on the ole cool factor meter.

[yorketransport]

Yorke, if you could I'd love to see a pic of this thing.  Doubtful I'll ever own one but they definitely peg the needle on the ole cool factor meter.

I'll see if I can get an approved picture of the rifle. McFiddlesticks is worried to even be left alone in the same room with the rifle and I don't think I'm allowed within 6 miles of it. I'm not sure why, I just wanted to rechamber it to a 470/505 Gibbs improved wildcat that I'm working on........

There was confirmation today from the rifle builder himself that the loads he gave are accurate. The charge weights he's giving are roughly 14% over the max load given by Barnes! This is clearly a case of a gun builder who is VERY confident in the guns he builds. The best explanation we can come up with is that this is a situation similar to 45-70 load data. There are enough old guns of unknown strength floating around that published loads need to be appropriate for them. I guess this is like a 470 NE +P.

McFiddlesticks is also loading ammo for the other barrel set for the same rifle in 375 H&H. The load for those barrels is pretty unimpressive compared to the data for the 470 NE. In fact it calls for using a case filler to make up for the low fill ratio in the case. While most people would use Dacron or polyester fiber as filler (that's what I typically used), McFiddlesticks chose to go a bit over the top.

This is a cloud plucked from the sky by an atheist Sherpa operator while practicing high altitude jumps from their operational assault zeppelin, while listening to Lead Zeppelin's Cashmere. I guess I'd use that too if it were an option....

While McFiddlesticks is an expert in many things, classic big bore double rifle cartridges isn't necessarily one of them. Training atheist Sherpa war fighters? No problem for McFiddlesticks. Loading 470 NE cartridges for a rifle worth more than a low end Lexus? Not so much. Fortunately for everyone involved, that's were I come in. We here at Box Monkey Ballistics specialize in providing operational support to the professional operational operator when they need help with random and obscure ballistic problem solving.

[yorketransport]

Update time!

I was sent this picture today. I was told that shooting a real man's caliber requires a real man's coffee.

McFiddlesticks said he was just sitting at the kitchen table, enjoying a cup of coffee and thought the 470 NE would be the perfect solution to that rogue hippo that's always dumping his trash can. I'm hoping to get a picture of the rifle later today.

In other news, it turns out that the 375 H&H isn't actually an H&H at all; rather it's a 375 Flanged Magnum Nitro Express. This explains why the load data for the 375 seems so mild. As we all know, the 375 Flanged Magnum Nitro Express operates at a lower max working pressure than a standard 375 H&H even though external case dimensions are very similar. The owner of the rifle didn't realize there was a difference. McFiddlesticks and a couple of Sherpas have been dispatched to get a good look at the guns in question in person to prevent any further miscommunication.

[Dan-o]

Looking forward to the rifle pic.......   

[cardinalguns]

I recalled this topic as I was searching for reduced loads for my Merkel 140-2.1 in .470 NE. The factory target that came with the gun states it was regulated with the Federal Safari Premium ammo and the 500 gr Trophy Bonded bullet (only $313/ 20).

Someone earlier stated shooting reduced loads in such a rifle was akin to buying a sports car and driving it at 30 mph.

In the interest of becoming proficient with the rifle, I took my own advice from August 2017 and bought a 385 gr mould from NOE, found the max load with Trail Boss, and loaded 10 rounds with graduated powder charges. I took the other 10 cases and loaded them with H4895 and the 385 gr bullet in hopes of finding that 2150 fps number which the Trophy Bonded starts at.

I know this is an old topic, but hopefully one that some still find relevant and interesting.