A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer

[fastdam]

All this will acomplish is more deer for wolves and indians.  That's all. I think it needs to go to a draw system and the indians need to be shut down if you want to see herd growth. 

[jdb]

Yeah but your a tieton hillbilly 

[mazama]

Controlling the hunters and their seasons will not help,i pulled out a hunting pamphlet from 1978,i have them that far back,that year the season went from oct14-nov12, they gave out 500 permits in 218 chewak and 1300 in 224 pearrygin,we cannot change the winterkill, so what has changed, hound hunting has been stopped now couger roaming allover 2000-4000 estimated in state,1 couger could eat up all the permit deer in one area-and a common theme on here is tracks,tracks,tracks-WOLVES-WOLVES-WOLVES,cut out all hunting predators can expand faster.Before the predator problem animals were able to make a comeback even after a bad winter.

[Special T]

Where is the hard data on harvest by the state? Do they have a breakdown beyond just numbers? Surely when reporting they have some kind of breakdown.

I've only killed black tail. When doing online reporting do they ask species as well as sex and points? Obviously some units have whitetail and Mule deer.

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[anglinarcher]

I agree with taking away the doe tags for mule deer but I think we also need to go to a draw only for mule deer buck tags as well. Maybe then we can get some numbers back as well as size.

[ghosthunter]

I am for no doe harvest.
I am for no harvest of any mule deer period for three years.
I am for no 3 pt restriction, because I don't think that works.

I am against a draw only for mule deer, because I think that will kill hunting for a lot of hunters who want to hunt  with family and friends.

[bigmacc]

Another idea is odd/even for mule deer...example-if your wild ID number ends in a odd number then you can hunt that year, if its even you hunt the next year, at least you could hunt muleys every other year compared to a draw where your at the mercy of getting your name drawn also if you have numerous people in your camp chances are good that at least a couple will have tags one year and the others will have tags the next so you can still have your traditional camps, just extra cooks and extra spotters each year ....  just a thought that I,ve kicked around for awhile. And of coarse, no doe tags, special permit tags OR late quality tags in areas that mule deer herds are hurting or have been on the decline (THE METHOW FOR EXAMPLE)

[trophyhunt]

All this will acomplish is more deer for wolves and indians.  That's all. I think it needs to go to a draw system and the indians need to be shut down if you want to see herd growth.

the natives (yakamas)provided deer and elk weekly to the biggest poacher in our state’s history.  Chances are pretty good that someone took his place after he got caught, and the supply probably hasn’t slowed down.  We need guys like plat to run his tribe and actually enforce their own laws about selling meat! And actually having harvest limits. Zero limits on deer and elk is beyond stupid!

[trophyhunt]

I’m not saying it’s  all the tribes fault, I believe wolves are a big problem as well. I’ve always thought if you can’t beat them join them, how about we open up everything over the counter in the 300 units and we kill everything. If the Indians Don’t have anything more to harvest maybe then they will come to the table with some sort of agreement. And I am not advocating poaching and I’m not all for this I’m just saying what do you think about this idea, is there any other way to get some cooperation with the tribes?

[Skyvalhunter]

 

[DaveMonti]

Well, that about sums up the single idea approach.  Everyone has their ideas of what needs to be done.

How many of these ideas are supported by data?  As far as the "doe" question goes, how many doe (or antlerless) deer are taken each year in this state?  In each unit?  How do those number of "antlerless" compare to the total number of deer in the state or in the units where the antlerless deer are harvested?

I don't have these answers.  I do, however, know that any "solution" that actually works is supported by data and sound reasoning.  While stopping the harvest of antlerless deer may SEEM like an intuitive solution to the problem of low deer numbers, does the data support that?  Does someone want to pour effort into a perceived solution that may not be supported by data? 

Suppose there are 4000 deer in a unit, and each year, 50 antlerless deer are taken from that unit.  Say that 40 of those antlerless deer are female with the rest being young antlerless bucks.  Will saving 1% (40/4000) of the population each year is going to make a difference in deer numbers?  Of those 40 female deer you save, how many survive the winter, predators, vehicles?  If you assume that of the 4000 deer, 3000 of them are does (I have no idea if this is right) but in buck heavy harvest areas, I expect there are more bucks than does), you are saving 40 of 3000 female deer.  What is the impact of an additional 1.3% of the doe population on the herd for the next year?  5 years? 

I have no idea of these numbers are anywhere NEAR the truth.  I don't have a solution.  I don't even know if there is a real problem as I've not looked up deer population trends for the past 20 years.  I'm not "for" or "against" a ban on antlerless hunting.  My point is that everyone has a "solution", and those solutions tend to be based on perception and not data.  If you want to make an impact, present an argument to the governing body that has DATA associated with it, and real analysis that shows results.  If you do not, you OR the governing body has NO idea how impactful your solution is. 

Now, I understand that REAL DATA is hard to come by, and it takes work, and most people have no idea of where to get the data, and if they did, it would probably be somewhat difficult to gather and compile, so guess what?  It's too hard! to get the data.  It's much easier to go with perception, which is highly emotional. 

So on and on we go, people throwing out emotional based solutions that are as varied as the personalities on this forum and no solutions get implemented because there is no data supporting how the solution may change the status quo. 

I know this idea is going to be met with hostility.  Nobody want's to hear that their "perception" isn't necessarily valid, or enough "evidence" to base real changes on.  And nobody want's to be faced with the task of collecting the data, if it even exists.  So my observations will not go over well with anyone who has an emotional based "solution". 

Now, just remember, before you go on and tell me "Well, if you have all the answers, what does your data tell you?" 
I don't have the data.  I have not decided to wade into this mess.  I just spend most of my hunting time in other states.  I don't profess to have the solutions or the data or the desire to do any of this.  But if you are so motivated, take some advice and start with the data. 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

All this will acomplish is more deer for wolves and indians.  That's all. I think it needs to go to a draw system and the indians need to be shut down if you want to see herd growth.

No, it will also put more pressure on Whitetails and Blacktails.

[huntnphool]

Another idea is odd/even for mule deer...example-if your wild ID number ends in a odd number then you can hunt that year, if its even you hunt the next year, at least you could hunt muleys every other year compared to a draw where your at the mercy of getting your name drawn also if you have numerous people in your camp chances are good that at least a couple will have tags one year and the others will have tags the next so you can still have your traditional camps, just extra cooks and extra spotters each year ....  just a thought that I,ve kicked around for awhile. And of coarse, no doe tags, special permit tags OR late quality tags in areas that mule deer herds are hurting or have been on the decline (THE METHOW FOR EXAMPLE)

 Where did you get that idea?

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,86231.msg1080089.html#msg1080089

[bigmacc]

Another idea is odd/even for mule deer...example-if your wild ID number ends in a odd number then you can hunt that year, if its even you hunt the next year, at least you could hunt muleys every other year compared to a draw where your at the mercy of getting your name drawn also if you have numerous people in your camp chances are good that at least a couple will have tags one year and the others will have tags the next so you can still have your traditional camps, just extra cooks and extra spotters each year ....  just a thought that I,ve kicked around for awhile. And of coarse, no doe tags, special permit tags OR late quality tags in areas that mule deer herds are hurting or have been on the decline (THE METHOW FOR EXAMPLE)

 Where did you get that idea?

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,86231.msg1080089.html#msg1080089

Great minds think alike , I figured if you weren't gonna jump on this thread then I,d throw it out here, its a great idea and I actually think it would work, ever since you brought it up I have thought about it a lot. I will admit though that my dad had a similar idea back in the 70,s when he was trying to convince some of the game guys in the Methow at the time to start gating roads or the herd would eventually be decimated, his idea was a system that had numbers 1 through 9 that all hunters were assigned and would stay with them for life, it would cost 100 dollars initially to buy in and when that number was drawn then you could hunt the Methow. example-one year the number 5 gets pulled from a hat(or drawn) all folks that bought in and that were number 5,s hunted that year and so on, it was kind of a highbred draw/lottery/ deal(I can't remember exactlyhow my dad had it set up), but I remember a few Game guys were brought up to our camp to hear the Idea, lots of notes were taken......and guess what years later a wild ID system was put in place ..who knows

Oh yes I just remembered another part to his "idea"....every 3 years you had to "re-buy in" a hundred dollars, you could keep your original number or be assigned a new one, all buy-in money was to go in a fund specifically to be used on feeding programs during bad winters in the Methow....if I remember any more specifics I will throw them out there.

[Rainier10]

I would like to chime in with my in the field observation of the local deer herd at my cabin which is smack dab in the middle of mule deer wintering grounds, actually says so right on my tax records.  Spent last weekend at the cabin, right in the middle of the rut.  Looking over about 4,000 acres of prime habitat.  75-100 does and yearlings, 3 bucks, a spike, a spike by two and a decent 2x2.  The 2x2 was attached to the rear end of a hot doe.  Normally more bucks filter into the area over the next month or so.  It will be interesting to see if they do.  Normally at this time of the year there are 12-17 bucks and 150 does.  There are normally more mature bucks as well.

I will say that I think loss of habitat is the number one problem and with that loss of habitat it puts more deer in peoples back yards where they are easier to harvest.  Because you can only harvest bucks they are just getting hammered.  The guy with two or three bucks coming in shoots one and then tells his buddies come on over there are two more left.

I agree that predators are an issue and I am doing my best to take them out of my area.

Just my