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Author Topic: Sabotloader I have a question about expansion  (Read 659 times)

Offline Mallardmasher

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Sabotloader I have a question about expansion
« on: December 18, 2017, 06:19:57 AM »
A week ago this past Sunday, I harvested a nice blacktail buck, it was shot with a CVA Accura, Barnes 300gr TMZ and 120 gr T7 magnum. at about 20yds, passing completely thru, and crushing two ribs. Both entry and exit where very clos to same dia. Yesterday I found the bullet, pictured below, and the buck also pictured below.
My question is, was my velocity to much for so close range, to allow for maximum expansion? Or should I look for another bullet to do the close work?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 09:18:55 AM by Mallardmasher »
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Matt

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Sabotloader I have a question about expansion
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 12:46:41 PM »
A week ago this past Sunday, I harvested a nice blacktail buck, it was shot with a CVA Accura, Barnes 300gr TMZ and 120 gr T7 magnum. at about 20yds, passing completely thru, and crushing two ribs. Both entry and exit where very clos to same dia. Yesterday I found the bullet, pictured below, and the buck also pictured below.
My question is, was my velocity to much for so close range, to allow for maximum expansion? Or should I look for another bullet to do the close work?

First off - I want you to know this is only my opinion!

Barnes bullets have a great reputation and work well for most people most of the time. 

You are not the only one that has reported this problem, ESPECIALLY at close range.  Whitetail, Black Tail, Coos deer really are thin skinned deer... Combined that with the velocity you were shooting the bullet at and the tipped bullet which offers a very small meplat of the bullet - the bullet is in and out of the animal before that bullet can fully expand.  If you were to shoot through the shoulder (thicker bones) I am sure you would have gotten more expansions.

With all of that siad if you had shot the animal at 100+ yards I beleive you would have seen different results.  So in actuallity I am agreeing wtih you if the bullet were shot with less velociy it would have been a different performance at 20 yards.

Problem is, if you were to load down for a close range shot - what are you going to di if the shot were 150 yards?  I am old! so I continue to load at 120 grains of powder (T7) because I want the bullet to work at extended ranges also.

The real difference is the bullets I choose to use.  I use a bullet with a larger meplat and with that the expands correctly over a larger range of velocities.  I found, along time ago, The the Nosler Partitions would expand over a wider range of veocities than most any Barnes.

Because of that experiance and several years testing different bullets, fueld by the fact that Nosler quit make partitions for my ML's - I switched to the Lehigh brand - then Bloodline and now back to the Lehigh Brand.

Lehigh offers 3 new copper bullet that perform very much like the original brass Lehighs or now Bloodlines.

Lehigh offers a .452 x 265 gr., a .452 x 240, and a .451 x grain solid copper bullet.

This is the .451x230 bullet that outstanding for deer.  It is a very accurate bullet and works out to 200+ yards with Terminal Performance and accuracy



This is the Lehigh .452x265 grain bullet. It is really probably an overkill for deer but really really good for elk



Not sure what you might want but these are what I would suggest and what I do use... Also remember I am old and really just an average shooter - other could make these groups much tighter.

This link will give you a look at the bullets I have discussed...

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/muzzleloader

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Mallardmasher

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Re: Sabotloader I have a question about expansion
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2017, 07:05:01 PM »
What sabot do you use with the Lehigh bullets.
Thanks for the info.
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Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Sabotloader I have a question about expansion
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 07:12:52 PM »
What sabot do you use with the Lehigh bullets.
Thanks for the info.

I believe the CVA's have a tight bore - so you will probably need the Harvester 45x50 Crush Rib or the MMP HPH-3P-Ez load. to get them down.  I guess you really will not know until you try one....

Which bullet might you try?

check your PM's

mike
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Offline Chukarhead

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Re: Sabotloader I have a question about expansion
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2017, 03:37:59 PM »
I know I'm butting into a conversation, here, but...public forum.

I've noticed that the Barnes bullets that hit bone upon entry are often deformed.  The pretty, symetrical copper flowers tend to be from shots that hit soft tissue on entry.  I've recoverd two from finishing head shots on elk, and they've been pretty beat up.  If it's a hard oblique on bone, I've had the petals turned in like yours.  It also looks like the other petals expanded, but may have broken off?  The petals are the only part of the bullet that will expand, so if they're bent in or break off, that's the extent of the expansion potential.  Then again, at that point the bullet is probably tumbling, which transfers a lot of kinetic energy to the critter.  Since energy transfer is the reason we want expansion, and you managed to find the bullet after it exited from a 20-yard broadside shot with a hot load, I'd say you've experience a pretty solid performance from the bullet.

I have really limited experience with the Lehigh bullets, and nothing bad to say about them, but they don't expand at all--they fragment, leaving a barrel-shaped chunk of brass to tumble through the animal: similar to the broken petals and the the un-expanded copper slug from the Barnes.

Offline grundy53

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Re: Sabotloader I have a question about expansion
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2017, 05:38:20 PM »
For some comparison. Here is a traditional lead core bullet (Hornaday sst) under simular conditions. CVA elkhorn. 250 grain bullet over 120 grains of pyrodex.   Roughly 20 yard shot. Through both front shoulders of a blacktail. Found just under the hide on opposite side.


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Offline GoexBlackhorn

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Re: Sabotloader I have a question about expansion
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 11:05:25 AM »
The Hornady SSTs and Monoflex are much better than the sister T/C Shockwaves.

For deer, I would probably buy the 40-cal, 215gr Lehigh CFs, using a 50/40 blue Harvester Crush Rib sabot.

Offline erk444

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Re: Sabotloader I have a question about expansion
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2017, 03:48:27 PM »
For some comparison. Here is a traditional lead core bullet (Hornaday sst) under simular conditions. CVA elkhorn. 250 grain bullet over 120 grains of pyrodex.   Roughly 20 yard shot. Through both front shoulders of a blacktail. Found just under the hide on opposite side.


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                                                                                    Im really surprized that bullet didnt pass through!? Ive never got a bullet back from a deer and I only shoot 90 grains of powder and barnes TMZs. Ive got 3 back from elk and all 3 showed perfect expansion. Only weighed one and it came in at 284 grains. Ive shot both 290g and 250g on deer and passed through every one from 90 to 7 yards. Why would your SST not pass through you think?

 

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