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Author Topic: Long range for beginners  (Read 12881 times)

Offline Yondering

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #300 on: September 16, 2018, 12:46:53 PM »
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.

Offline jasnt

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #301 on: September 16, 2018, 04:41:44 PM »
Other than load development I don’t shoot groups.  My main concern is first round hits or as few as possible.  I like to use targets that are 1 moa or as close to that as I can.

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Offline BULLBLASTER

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #302 on: September 16, 2018, 05:10:59 PM »
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.
:yeah:
Like the saying that the bullets need to “go to sleep” or “settle in”

Offline Oh Mah

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #303 on: September 16, 2018, 07:21:54 PM »
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.
:yeah:
Like the saying that the bullets need to “go to sleep” or “settle in”
Do you shoot long range competition?
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Offline BULLBLASTER

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #304 on: September 16, 2018, 07:24:51 PM »
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.
:yeah:
Like the saying that the bullets need to “go to sleep” or “settle in”
Do you shoot long range competition?
Ive done a couple small unofficial club matches but nothing major or consistent. Just like to shoot and too much competing would cut into my tag fund

Offline Oh Mah

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #305 on: September 16, 2018, 07:37:40 PM »
I actually agree with you on that.Everything done in a group cost more,but its healthy.  :tup:
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Offline yorketransport

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #306 on: September 16, 2018, 08:30:16 PM »

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.

The scatter plot group! If you fire a load of buckshot at a target, you could pick out 3 pellets that from a great group. That's the same as firing 10 groups and deciding that the best one fired is the true capability of the rifle.

I've know a lot of guys who would get one really good 3 shot group and then proclaim their gun to be a .25 MOA rifle. Next trip out they'd get a .75 MOA group and blame the optic, bullets, neck tension, firing pin protrusion, the deforestation of the Amazon and anything else they could think of. The reality is that their gun was a .5 MOA gun that had one good group and one bad group. Shoot 20 shots at the same target over the course of a couple outings and you learn a lot about a gun's true capabilities.
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Offline Oh Mah

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #307 on: September 16, 2018, 08:39:38 PM »
 :yeah:  :tup: Spot on.
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Offline Yondering

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #308 on: September 16, 2018, 08:47:09 PM »
The buckshot group is a great analogy.

Offline jaymark6655

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #309 on: September 17, 2018, 07:56:36 AM »
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.

His book talks about projectiles can be launched unstable or marginal stability with pitching an yawing until the velocity slows enough to allow the aerodynamic overturning to be damped out by the rotational rigidity. He does make the claim that these pitching a yaws only cause slight movements relative to bullet diameter, but I think it could be more so it shouldn't be able to be measured on paper. I know .50BMGs are really bad about this and it has been photographed. Any lateral velocity should move the projectile further from its flight path as the time of flight increases (increased range); at least in theory so pretty safe bet on his part, but I have been told that the USMC has done extensive testing and proved that group size can decrease with increased range on some weapons. I hope to see that data someday.
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Offline jasnt

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #310 on: September 17, 2018, 10:06:47 AM »
The take away from that video for beginners should be the conversation on moa and expectations. IE "they might be .5 moa here and there but only because the stars aligned at that time"..5 moa ay 500 but might not be at 100.  :tup:

There's a myth floating around that some rifles are more accurate at long distance than they are up close. Brian Litz has asked for anyone who has such a rifle to show him, with no successful takers. I agree with him that it's purely a myth, and a result of people firing only a few rounds to test accuracy and thinking that is a good representation of what the rifle does.

In your 100 & 500 yard example above, if one were to shoot 10-20 rounds on each target, you'd see both average out to about the same MOA accuracy level, with the 500 yard target being slightly worse. But, pick any 3 rounds from either target and imagine those were the only rounds fired, and you could see how those results might look like the rifle is more accurate at 500 than 100. That also shows how a 1.5 moa rifle might look like a 0.5 moa rifle on a lucky target.

His book talks about projectiles can be launched unstable or marginal stability with pitching an yawing until the velocity slows enough to allow the aerodynamic overturning to be damped out by the rotational rigidity. He does make the claim that these pitching a yaws only cause slight movements relative to bullet diameter, but I think it could be more so it shouldn't be able to be measured on paper. I know .50BMGs are really bad about this and it has been photographed. Any lateral velocity should move the projectile further from its flight path as the time of flight increases (increased range); at least in theory so pretty safe bet on his part, but I have been told that the USMC has done extensive testing and proved that group size can decrease with increased range on some weapons. I hope to see that data someday.
:yeah:
🐾2018
243Round ct. 398
338rc 114
Rifle rc 974
"... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you... we are in charge of our Attitudes."
Charles R. Swindoll

Offline Yondering

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #311 on: September 17, 2018, 10:14:11 AM »

His book talks about projectiles can be launched unstable or marginal stability with pitching an yawing until the velocity slows enough to allow the aerodynamic overturning to be damped out by the rotational rigidity.

Yes, but some people misinterpret that to support the myth about a tighter moa spread at long range; it doesn't.

Offline Oh Mah

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #312 on: September 17, 2018, 10:36:58 AM »
 :yeah: THE STABALIZING OF THE BULLET CANNOT POSSIBLY TIGHTEN A GROUP AT LONGER DISTANCES.That i agree with the grouping is tightest at the muzzle.

I'm not explaining something right which happens all the time, sorry.
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Offline Oh Mah

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Re: Long range for beginners
« Reply #313 on: September 17, 2018, 10:42:51 AM »
A consistent load fired consistently from a rifle at a consistent range can consistently stabilize a round and more consistently strike the target in a more consistent pattern forming a more consistent group giving the given rifle a more consistently tighter group at a given range. whether longer range or shorter range depends on a few factors.  :tup:

 :yeah: mostly due to keyholing.  :twocents:
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