is it worth getting into the points game?

[idaho guy]

  I am 50 and have never really put in for permits except Idaho and off and on in  Montana. I live or did live  in both states a long time and so have a quite a bit of on the ground knowledge about both states. So I subscribed to huntn fool and recently go hunt and have had the urge to put in for the great hunts in all the western states. I have not been able to pull the trigger on any other states yet. First I hunt all seasons in Idaho which adding hound seasons with lion and bear to an already full fall I am kept pretty busy year round. I still love to go to Montana to at least deer hunt and usually add that each year. From time to time I go to AK on a diy hunt just because its so awesome up there. I look at the odds and the years and additional homework for places I have never been and cant decide if I should jump on. Especially with point creep and everything else I read about. I don't think I want to wait till I am 70 or older to draw a "great" tag. Maybe I do just not sure. I know a lot of you do it every year. What is your opinion? Is it worth it? Am I too late? If I do it I will probably go all in but would really only want a really good tag or I would rather stay here and hunt what I know. I have also noticed tags that were guaranteed becoming hard to draw and feel like huntn fool and others have made everything worse by getting everyone in the country putting in. Then people don't even buy or hunt the tags? Its like an addiction to the draw for some people?  Strangely enough this is the only hunting forum I am on although I don't hunt in Washington. I got on here for my son and got hooked on it somehow Anyways any opinions would be helpfull especially from hunters who have been in the game for a while.       

[Bob33]

If you are a non-resident, you would need to purchase a non-resident hunting license ($740 for deer and elk) to apply for deer and elk permits. The odds of drawing a "quality' deer or elk tag, especially with no points are extremely low. Washington is a "bonus point" rather than "preference point" state so you would never be guaranteed to draw, even after 100 years of applying.

You would not need a hunting license to apply for moose, sheep, and mountain goat permits but the odds of drawing one of them (especially sheep and goat) are very low as well: 1 in 1000 or worse in many cases.

You could say "why not?" and apply because someone draws these permits every year, but it's very unlikely that you would when you're just starting out.

[trophyhunt]

No it’s not worth it, Hunt otc tags the way you want to hunt.  Don’t get old waiting for a permit.  The odds of drawing are only getting worse, and the quality is going down. At most, buy ghost points and only put in when when you draw a multi season tag, keep in mind that I’m talking about deer and elk, by all means put in for sheep, goat and moose every year if those are species you want to hunt.  Just my 2 cents.   I didn’t realize you were a non resident, no is still my answer.  And you can’t just buy only points here.

[Bob33]

Applying for 20 years for deer and elk would cost a non-resident north of $15,000. I think the money could be more wisely spent elsewhere.

[idaho guy]

If you are a non-resident, you would need to purchase a non-resident hunting license ($740 for deer and elk) to apply for deer and elk permits. The odds of drawing a "quality' deer or elk tag, especially with no points are extremely low. Washington is a "bonus point" rather than "preference point" state so you would never be guaranteed to draw, even after 100 years of applying.

You would not need a hunting license to apply for moose, sheep, and mountain goat permits but the odds of drawing one of them (especially sheep and goat) are very low as well: 1 in 1000 or worse in many cases.

You could say "why not?" and apply because someone draws these permits every year, but it's very unlikely that you would when you're just starting out.

I need to clarify Washington is the only state I would NOT apply in. Thanks Bob but I already did the math on Washington and not interested I am interested in other western states-Nevada,Wyoming,utah,new mexico Colorado. 

[idaho guy]

 I have been putting my son in for tags in Washington as a youth because he gets the youth pricing this is his last year. I am painfully aware of the odds and knew about regular non resident pricing so would never consider Washington for myself. I am not sure I will even put my son in this year as a youth. Thanks for the replies though I should have been more clear! Main states would be Wyoming,Colorado and New mexico since one has no points but terrible odds and the others don't seem terrible with the amount of points needed to draw a really good tag. Arizona and Nevada are tempting but that looks like a really looong wait for a newbie. Utah maybe not sure. One thing is just researching the tags I might actually want because I feel I have great opportunities here that are otc hunts. I just cant get over the thought of passing up 300 plus bulls looking for that 400. I guess I just read too many articles on some of the other states controlled hunts        

[chester]

Wyoming, Colorado would be worthwhile, New Mexico is a no brainer, they run their draw the same as Idaho with no points. I’d probably keep the Nevada money for something else .

[KFhunter]

*If* special draws were improving *If* the herds improving and *If* opportunity was improving then my answer would be different for resident applications, but things are not looking good now and I have no hope of things improving any time soon.

edit:  Oh I see you're not talking about WA 

[NRA4LIFE]

The real premiere trophy elk units in Colorado will be impossible to draw before you're sodded in. 

[idaho guy]

The real premiere trophy elk units in Colorado will be impossible to draw before you're sodded in.

guess I will scratch that one! thinking mule deer in Colorado anyways 

[whacker1]

inbox is full Idaho guy

[meatwhack]

If you’re only looking at building points for premium hunts in those states then no it’s not worth it. You’d be way too far behind the curve to draw in the next hundred years. There are tags though that you could draw with less points and go have a fun hunt just depends on what you’re looking for.

[idaho guy]

inbox is full Idaho guy
[/quote


Deleted a bunch

[idaho guy]

If you’re only looking at building points for premium hunts in those states then no it’s not worth it. You’d be way too far behind the curve to draw in the next hundred years. There are tags though that you could draw with less points and go have a fun hunt just depends on what you’re looking for.

I don’t need a premium tag. I feel like for me I already have good otc hunts that I know well and do every year so for the time and travel I would want a lot better than I could do in Idaho or Montana with a general tag. I don’t know if that clarifys anything I just don’t know how good a drawable tag would be. Knowing the country means a lot too when it comes to turning up quality animals so I think about that too

[opdinkslayer]

You need to figure out areas in each state that you may be interested in hunting & see how many points it takes to draw. I can guarantee point creep is going to continue to get worse in Wyoming & Colorado. It comes down to how long you want to wait and how much money your willing to invest building points.

[runamuk]

Nope

[WAcoueshunter]

There are tons of good hunts in the west that don’t take many points. Assuming you can make the time and pay the fees, no reason not to. Sure, some hunts are out of reach, but a generic statement that you are too late to start is just plain wrong.

[Magnum_Willys]

Nope

Its a tossup if you have 15 points now on whether to continue or not.  Zero points - no brainer - go somewhere else !

[idaho guy]

Nope

Its a tossup if you have 15 points now on whether to continue or not.  Zero points - no brainer - go somewhere else !

I think this is in reference to Washington Again I am Not considering putting in for wa hunts at all. looking for opinions on other western states besides Idaho where I live and obviously put in every year for what I can

[Ridgerunner]

If I was 50 and just starting out I'd be playing the draw game in Idaho, New Mexico and Wyoming.  Throw Colorado in for deer as long as you aren't hung up on a great unit.  At your age and with the current point structure you are too far behind the 8 ball for the great tags unless you get VERY lucky in the randoms.  That being said I still think you can still get some good tags. 

And yes I do think people become addicted to the point game, how many points they have can feed the ego, but I think one of the main reasons is it allows a guy to dream each year about the various tags he might draw.  If you run the math, I think you might be shocked at how much $$$$$ it takes to go ALL in on the points game.  too much imo which is why I pick and choose the states and species that I think I'll see a good return on, and I'm in my early 40's and have been playing the game for over 20 years.

[jjhunter]

Colorado has tons of options for guys just starting out, Wyoming as well.   Obviously, your home state of Idaho.   I'd throw Utah in there; apply for the LE hunts and hope to get lucky while hunting on a general tag every 2-3 years.

Draw odds are tough right now, but everything is cyclical.   When this economy slows down (particularly the building industry), tags get cheaper, draw odds improve, and I invest 

[Duckhunter14]

You'll never draw a tag you don't put in for. I started 5-6 years ago applying for tags as I could afford them. This year I was able to apply in CO, NV, MT, ID, AZ, UT and WA. I should have done NM also but thought I would be too busy if I drew and would be pretty strapped if my card got hit for a sheep tag. I am 31 and feel like I am already a little behind in the game, I wish I would have scraped every penny in college and been more aware of the point game across the west. I enjoy researching hunts and applying across the different states. It's definitely an investment. One I don't plan on making a lot of return on anytime soon, but like someone else mentioned if your name is in the hat you have an opportunity. If you hunt with a bow or muzz you also increase your odds in some states of drawing sooner. Lots of people only put in for the top units for each species, and put in for rifle hunts because they don't want to chance using up all their points and end up not filling their tags. Which is the way I may feel after 20+ years. But I don't mind putting in for them now with less skin in the game (points) because I just want to hunt! I want to explore new places and hunt animals I've never hunted. There are plenty of OTC opportunities to fill the gaps on years you don't draw.

Do some research, apply for less sought after tags that are still quality hunts and you will increase your odds. My buddy and I drew less sought after MT elk tags by applying for archery and killed two decent 6 points with our bows two years ago. My buddy applied for a moose permit in Idaho last year that everyone said was a terrible unit and he killed a P&Y bull on the third day. Granted he scouted his butt off, but by applying for less sought after tags and doing your homework you can still kill quality animals and not wait 25 years. Just takes a little more work and some more research.

Good luck! Id say its never too late. Someone has to draw. 

Clint

[idaho guy]

 thanks for the feedback everyone. It helps confirm some things I was thinking. I did the same thing in Idaho and  put in for what is not considered and very good hunt but has great odds  and got a nice moose. Guess I just need to do some homework on some out of state hunting.  That's the hurdle for me is investing that time and money on the unknown when I could use it here where I feel like I already have a good base of knowledge. I thought if I did it I would go all in but I think I will go partially in!  I think the states I was seriously considering would be worth a go   

[SkookumHntr]

In wa you probably have better odds buying a few raffle tickets

[theleo]

I'd invest if you have some areas in mind that might just take 3-4 years to draw and you don't have to deal with OTC hunters in the same unit. You've got OTC opportunities in your home state that'd take 5+ years to draw in Oregon, 10+ for Washington. Those once in a lifetime draw units usually take a lifetime of applications under a point system.

[Threewolves]

No, Ponzi schemes (?) at best. I will be 62 and I am sitting on (now) 23 points for big horn, 20 for MT Goat, 19 for moose. No it is not worth it. If you want to hunt these go some place like Alaska where you can do it. Don't waste 19, 20 or 23 years waiting. There needs to be a system to grandfather your points to your grandchildren maybe they would have a chance......

If I just hunt Elk, deer and bear over the counter I am fine. Used to live in AK & took five moose. Life is too short, you only have so many sunsets choose to use them wisely.   

[idaho guy]

I'd invest if you have some areas in mind that might just take 3-4 years to draw and you don't have to deal with OTC hunters in the same unit. You've got OTC opportunities in your home state that'd take 5+ years to draw in Oregon, 10+ for Washington. Those once in a lifetime draw units usually take a lifetime of applications under a point system.

That is exactly what  I was wondering if some of the 5-10 year draw tags wouldn't even give me a better hunt than otc res.
That's part of the struggle is I can and do hunt otc deer,elk,bear and lion every year in Idaho and can get the guaranteed resident-  non resident deer and elk tag every year in Montana for about half price. So I don't need to fill any holes in my year with general or just ok hunts out of state. It would be ok to wait 5-10 years for a tag since I will be hunting every year in the meantime.  I feel I already have excellent hunts I can do in the general seasons and don't want to put a lot of effort into researching tags/areas that might be the same or slightly better than Idaho or Montana general seasons. All the input has been good thank you! I guess I just have to do more homework before I even decide to jump in. It sounds like Wyoming and Colorado(deer only) are worth it for a better hunt but I can still draw before I am dead? And then as a longshot since no points do new mexico every year. I appreciate the information just looking for the states maybe to start researchng hard first. I will always put in Idaho and Montana since I already hunt those states every year.         

[BULLBLASTER]

This year will be a change in Colorado. Lots of newcomers to he point game there so tags may not be as easy to get moving forward. 

[bearpaw]

There isn't a one-size fits all answer to this question, I think you need to consider several factors! 

I think a person needs to look at the odds and points needed for the hunts you want plus you must figure it will get tougher with point creep as years go by verses the cost to go north or pay for a landowner tag or outfitter depending on the hunt desired. If you are a young person I would apply for and accumulate as many points as possible, you will outlive older persons already applying. In some cases especially for an older person, some hunts such as mountain goats or big elk, it may be cheaper in the long run to buy a hunt for 10k in Alaska or Canada or buy an outfitted hunt or a landowner tag, rather than apply and waste money applying in numerous states and never get drawn?

[idaho guy]

There isn't a one-size fits all answer to this question, I think you need to consider several factors! 

I think a person needs to look at the odds and points needed for the hunts you want plus you must figure it will get tougher with point creep as years go by verses the cost to go north or pay for a landowner tag or outfitter depending on the hunt desired. If you are a young person I would apply for and accumulate as many points as possible, you will outlive older persons already applying. In some cases especially for an older person, some hunts such as mountain goats or big elk, it may be cheaper in the long run to buy a hunt for 10k in Alaska or Canada or buy an outfitted hunt or a landowner tag, rather than apply and waste money applying in numerous states and never get drawn?

That makes sense I was wondering about landowner tags as an option but cant find a lot of information on them besides a  pretty limited list of tags for sale by tag brokers and I was told they double the price typically over the cost from the landowner. Everybody should and needs to make money but if they double the price that seems pretty excessive. I would buy an upper end landowner tag just to  experience one of those hunts one time.(I don't know what the actual cost would be) I guess  a bucket list item. It  does seem like a guide might actually save you money on some species mountain goat for sure. If I don't eventually draw that in Idaho or Montana I will go that route 

[idaho guy]

This year will be a change in Colorado. Lots of newcomers to he point game there so tags may not be as easy to get moving forward. 

Is the change just a ton of new hunters applying this year?   

[whacker1]

This year will be a change in Colorado. Lots of newcomers to he point game there so tags may not be as easy to get moving forward. 

Is the change just a ton of new hunters applying this year?

one used to have to prefund the tags and they would return the tag costs if you did not draw.  This year they moved to a license and application cost, and no longer required to pre-fund the tag.  post draw purchase of the tag, so easier to acquire points and apply if you don't have as much cash outlay state by state.

[BULLBLASTER]

This year will be a change in Colorado. Lots of newcomers to he point game there so tags may not be as easy to get moving forward. 

Is the change just a ton of new hunters applying this year?

one used to have to prefund the tags and they would return the tag costs if you did not draw.  This year they moved to a license and application cost, and no longer required to pre-fund the tag.  post draw purchase of the tag, so easier to acquire points and apply if you don't have as much cash outlay state by state.

Having to front the tag fee to apply or accrue a point kept numbers down.

Im guessing there will be some upset people after the draw that don’t realize they will still hit you with a $40 per species point fee unless you held a license last year.

Now there are tons of people who are applying because it’s cheap and doesn’t tie up a bunch of cash.  Heck I bought an elk point that I would have not bought if I had to front the $600.

[idaho guy]

This year will be a change in Colorado. Lots of newcomers to he point game there so tags may not be as easy to get moving forward. 

Is the change just a ton of new hunters applying this year?

one used to have to prefund the tags and they would return the tag costs if you did not draw.  This year they moved to a license and application cost, and no longer required to pre-fund the tag.  post draw purchase of the tag, so easier to acquire points and apply if you don't have as much cash outlay state by state.

Having to front the tag fee to apply or accrue a point kept numbers down.

Im guessing there will be some upset people after the draw that don’t realize they will still hit you with a $40 per species point fee unless you held a license last year.

Now there are tons of people who are applying because it’s cheap and doesn’t tie up a bunch of cash.  Heck I bought an elk point that I would have not bought if I had to front the $600.

10-4 thanks! Lots to learn feel like I’m back in school ha ha

[Stein]

If you look at other states, having to front the cash doesn't seem to move the number of applicants.  Most people swipe the plastic at the last couple days and then either figure out how to pay or get a credit back on the card.

I'm amazed that anything having to do with cost doesn't really move the needle.  Some states have passed huge NR fee increases and the number of applicants doesn't seem to budge much.  If it does, it is only very temporary.

[BULLBLASTER]

If you look at other states, having to front the cash doesn't seem to move the number of applicants.  Most people swipe the plastic at the last couple days and then either figure out how to pay or get a credit back on the card.

I'm amazed that anything having to do with cost doesn't really move the needle.  Some states have passed huge NR fee increases and the number of applicants doesn't seem to budge much.  If it does, it is only very temporary.

Colorado oil apps were up 300-500% this year...
that’s a pretty drastic increase.
Also I have read that nonresident deer apps are up 100% it more over last year.
Both of these are huge and directly related to not having to front the fees. 

[meatwhack]

What people don’t realize is the majority of the increase is people just putting in for points and not actually applying for a tag. Basically the same that happens with Wyoming since you can just buy points.

[BULLBLASTER]

Eventually those point buyers will want to draw tags though.

I bought an elk point this year, because of that and it was cheap to do so I will eventually apply for an elk tag. If I had to loan them $600 each year I wouldn’t have bothered. 

[idaho guy]

Eventually those point buyers will want to draw tags though.

I bought an elk point this year, because of that and it was cheap to do so I will eventually apply for an elk tag. If I had to loan them $600 each year I wouldn’t have bothered. 

How many points are you shootin for before you would apply? How many do you think you would need to have a realistic chance of drawing a good tag

[BULLBLASTER]

Eventually those point buyers will want to draw tags though.

I bought an elk point this year, because of that and it was cheap to do so I will eventually apply for an elk tag. If I had to loan them $600 each year I wouldn’t have bothered. 

I don’t have any plan and haven’t even looked into it at all. Mostly just bought the point because it was cheap. I would guess in the 4-7 point range I’ll probably look to get a tag.

How many points are you shootin for before you would apply? How many do you think you would need to have a realistic chance of drawing a good tag

[meatwhack]

The fee for Colorado elk was never $600 to build points back when you had to front the money.

[BULLBLASTER]

The fee for Colorado elk was never $600 to build points back when you had to front the money.

You did have to pay the entire tag fee to them and they would refund most of it after the draw. When I was building deer points I was out $400 for 2 months from the application deadline until after the draw. Unless I was missing something elk was the same way?

[meatwhack]

Elk you had to front the money but if you were doing points only you only had to front the money for a cow tag. I think it was around $400 can’t remember exact amount. The part I dislike about any of the increased fees is none of the money is helping F&G it’s just paying the credit card companies.

[BULLBLASTER]

Elk you had to front the money but if you were doing points only you only had to front the money for a cow tag. I think it was around $400 can’t remember exact amount. The part I dislike about any of the increased fees is none of the money is helping F&G it’s just paying the credit card companies.

I didn’t know that.  Thanks for prividing helpful info instead of just telling me I’m wrong. 

[Bigshooter]

You watch CO will be charging $100 for a point at some point in time.

[paultanninen]

apply, apply, apply