Cougar Harvest Guideline System

[pianoman9701]

So, I'm looking at the cougar harvest guideline system. 560's guideline is 5-6. 572's guideline is 2-3. These are huge units. Based on maintaining populations using the standard of 14% +/- 2%, that means they estimate there are 40 cougars in all of the Lewis River unit and 18 in all of Siouxon? Am I reading the guidelines correctly and if so, are they smoking crack in Olympia while compiling these? Someone please tell me what I'm missing here, if anything.

[Jonathan_S]

I don't think you're missing anything.  I'm no expert at cougar populations but I'd say it's crazy for anybody to estimate that low of a number in big wild areas with resident ungulates, particularly in those two units.

[Ridgeratt]

You may get some input from KF Hunter if you ask him.

[KFhunter]

I don't have much to add other than it's political or emotionally based biology in which the ousted WSU professor Weilgus played a direct part. 

I can't believe that WDFW thinks their estimations are a real number.  Having that thought only makes me believe that WDFW is intentionally and deliberately misleading us all. 

Another thing that irks me about the low harvest guidelines is that problem cougar killed because they present a significant risk to the public or livestock are counted in the harvest guidelines, detracting from what hunters are allowed to take.

In the GMU's I'm most familiar with I know the numbers are very wrong. I spent time with the WSU student researchers that were running hounds and tracking the cats.  There are a lot more cats than WDFW lets on. 

The only question is why?

[wheels]

maybe its time to call out wdfw

[Cougartail]

The only question is why?

Because the state is full of and lead by a bunch of *censored*.

[Rainier10]

The forum has a built in censor, trying to get around it by changing letters or the spelling just makes more work for the mod team.

Please keep it clean.

[Special T]

So, I'm looking at the cougar harvest guideline system. 560's guideline is 5-6. 572's guideline is 2-3. These are huge units. Based on maintaining populations using the standard of 14% +/- 2%, that means they estimate there are 40 cougars in all of the Lewis River unit and 18 in all of Siouxon? Am I reading the guidelines correctly and if so, are they smoking crack in Olympia while compiling these? Someone please tell me what I'm missing here, if anything.

As memory serves they only count adults 2+ years old as the population base... there was some kind of specific definition used that made the math merky for me. 

[pianoman9701]

It still can't be even close to the real population.

[Special T]

It still can't be even close to the real population.

It might also only be one sex...  I remeber it was something goofy about the definition.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Cougartail]

It still can't be even close to the real population.

For years the population was estimated at 1900 to 2100. Then the state estimate was 3500 to 4500 a few years back. Magically it is now 1900 to 2100 again.

Odd?

[Moe the Sleaze]

I've never seen a cougar in 40 years of hunting elk and deer here, mostly in the NE corner.  How many do you folks think there are?  And how do you expect WDFW to conduct population surveys on Cougars?  Estimates at best, obviously.  So they decide to be conservative.  I have no problem with that.

[JimmyHoffa]

I see about 2-3 a year during deer and elk.  A couple of years ago I saw I think 7, but that also included fishing.

[Nwgunner]

Am I right in interpreting the regs to say that the harvest guideline system only refers to a possible closure during late season?  What happens if the guideline is reached during early season?

[hunter399]

Am I right in interpreting the regs to say that the harvest guideline system only refers to a possible closure during late season?  What happens if the guideline is reached during early season?

Nothing , they allow people to hunt till Jan 1 ,even if guidelines are done ,there are some cases that harvest is reached do to public safety cougar removals,so no late season.

[Westside88]

I’d bet there are 3x the estimate

[KFhunter]

I've never seen a cougar in 40 years of hunting elk and deer here, mostly in the NE corner.  How many do you folks think there are?  And how do you expect WDFW to conduct population surveys on Cougars?  Estimates at best, obviously.  So they decide to be conservative.  I have no problem with that.

That's part of the problem, they're elusive

[Jonathan_S]

I've never seen a cougar in 40 years of hunting elk and deer here, mostly in the NE corner.  How many do you folks think there are?  And how do you expect WDFW to conduct population surveys on Cougars?  Estimates at best, obviously.  So they decide to be conservative.  I have no problem with that.

How many weasels or pine marten have you seen?  How many bobcat?

Lots of species that you'll never seen that have an impact.  That's why we employ biologists... 

[bigmacc]

I really think they just throw numbers out there and the ones they throw out seem to be on the low side when it comes to predator numbers and they seem to be on the high side for deer and elk.

[Cougartail]

I've never seen a cougar in 40 years of hunting elk and deer here, mostly in the NE corner.  How many do you folks think there are?  And how do you expect WDFW to conduct population surveys on Cougars?  Estimates at best, obviously.  So they decide to be conservative.  I have no problem with that.

How many weasels or pine marten have you seen?  How many bobcat?

Lots of species that you'll never seen that have an impact.  That's why we employ biologists... 

I see lots of weasels, pine marten and bobcat. Being a trapper/predator hunter you spend far more time in the field than most.

[Jonathan_S]

I've never seen a cougar in 40 years of hunting elk and deer here, mostly in the NE corner.  How many do you folks think there are?  And how do you expect WDFW to conduct population surveys on Cougars?  Estimates at best, obviously.  So they decide to be conservative.  I have no problem with that.

How many weasels or pine marten have you seen?  How many bobcat?

Lots of species that you'll never seen that have an impact.  That's why we employ biologists... 

I see lots of weasels, pine marten and bobcat. Being a trapper/predator hunter you spend far more time in the field than most.

Yes and some people see cougar afield too.  That was kind of my point 

I've seen plenty of furbearers too and a few cats but not as many as have seen me.

[warthog]

I've never seen a cougar in 40 years of hunting elk and deer here, mostly in the NE corner.  How many do you folks think there are?  And how do you expect WDFW to conduct population surveys on Cougars?  Estimates at best, obviously.  So they decide to be conservative.  I have no problem with that.

How many weasels or pine marten have you seen?  How many bobcat?

Lots of species that you'll never seen that have an impact.  That's why we employ biologists... 

I see lots of weasels, pine marten and bobcat. Being a trapper/predator hunter you spend far more time in the field than most.

Yes and some people see cougar afield too.  That was kind of my point 

I've seen plenty of furbearers too and a few cats but not as many as have seen me.

if the animals had guns and shot back,i wouldn't hunt.  not only would i not hunt but i'd duck when walking by a window.

[bigmacc]

I’d bet there are 3x the estimate

At least!

[Jonathan_S]

I've never seen a cougar in 40 years of hunting elk and deer here, mostly in the NE corner.  How many do you folks think there are?  And how do you expect WDFW to conduct population surveys on Cougars?  Estimates at best, obviously.  So they decide to be conservative.  I have no problem with that.

How many weasels or pine marten have you seen?  How many bobcat?

Lots of species that you'll never seen that have an impact.  That's why we employ biologists... 

I see lots of weasels, pine marten and bobcat. Being a trapper/predator hunter you spend far more time in the field than most.

Yes and some people see cougar afield too.  That was kind of my point 

I've seen plenty of furbearers too and a few cats but not as many as have seen me.

if the animals had guns and shot back,i wouldn't hunt.  not only would i not hunt but i'd duck when walking by a window.

Well... I guess I agree but I’m not sure what that has to do with anything 

[HighlandLofts]

In this months (August 2018 issue) Fur, Fish, Game there is an article on page 4 about Oregon's cougar population. The Oregon State population is estimated at 6,400 and 950 reside in the Coastal North Cascade Zone.
So if what they say is true that a cougar kills one deer a week, times the 6,400 cougars by 62 equals 332,800 dead dear a year in Oregon just from the cats.

Now the liberal controlled Washington wildlife dept says we have between 1,900 to 2,000 adult cougars. So let's take just 2,000 of them times that by 52 equals 104,000 dead deer a year by our low numbers of cougar.
Then you have to add in all of the deer their wolves are killing on a yearly bases. Oh sorry about that, they call the coyotes or some ones pet dog that just happen to run in oasis and go on deer and elk killing sprees.

On their website Washington hunters harvested 26,537 deer lat season.

New York State hunters harvested 203,427 whitetail deer last year.

Pennsylvania hunters harvested 367,159 deer last year.

I hunt deer in Upstate New York and in Pennsylvaia, the cost to hunt both states is just over $200 for both hunting licenses.
My airline ticket just cost me $299. I have places to stay and a ton of places to hunt on that are loaded with deer. Unlike here unless you go over to annacortes or whidby island or camano island.

This States deer herd is about depleted and it gets worse every passing year.
The cougar sightings are sky rocketing and the wolf packs are separating and expanding in to new undocumented coyote packs.
You call them up to report wolf sightings and they tell you, you don't know what you seen. Or there are none in that area. So it looks like some large coyotes will be harvested.

[dan11011]

"This States deer herd is about depleted" How can you possibly say such a thing. I hear and get where you are coming from with all your rough calculations, but that statement just gets me..

In this months (August 2018 issue) Fur, Fish, Game there is an article on page 4 about Oregon's cougar population. The Oregon State population is estimated at 6,400 and 950 reside in the Coastal North Cascade Zone.
So if what they say is true that a cougar kills one deer a week, times the 6,400 cougars by 62 equals 332,800 dead dear a year in Oregon just from the cats.

Now the liberal controlled Washington wildlife dept says we have between 1,900 to 2,000 adult cougars. So let's take just 2,000 of them times that by 52 equals 104,000 dead deer a year by our low numbers of cougar.
Then you have to add in all of the deer their wolves are killing on a yearly bases. Oh sorry about that, they call the coyotes or some ones pet dog that just happen to run in oasis and go on deer and elk killing sprees.

On their website Washington hunters harvested 26,537 deer lat season.

New York State hunters harvested 203,427 whitetail deer last year.

Pennsylvania hunters harvested 367,159 deer last year.

I hunt deer in Upstate New York and in Pennsylvaia, the cost to hunt both states is just over $200 for both hunting licenses.
My airline ticket just cost me $299. I have places to stay and a ton of places to hunt on that are loaded with deer. Unlike here unless you go over to annacortes or whidby island or camano island.

This States deer herd is about depleted and it gets worse every passing year.
The cougar sightings are sky rocketing and the wolf packs are separating and expanding in to new undocumented coyote packs.
You call them up to report wolf sightings and they tell you, you don't know what you seen. Or there are none in that area. So it looks like some large coyotes will be harvested.