Yakama Nation Sheep Tags

[PlateauNDN]

Let's see a show of hands of how many would just let the state show up and do what they want, when they want and how they want on your property.

No questions, warnings or explanation.

[b0bbyg]

why should we be the ones to initiate the dialog when we dont have to.

 And there it is in a nutshell!

If neither side is reaching out neither has the moral high ground.   

My ignorant outside opinion is 2 sides wanted to hunt sheep and/or sell tags.   Both did.
Would it be great if both sides started from a big picture conservation standpoint before setting limits - sure
Would it be great if everyone worked together and gets everything right the first time - you bet.
But that is not where we are, both sides have some bad apples lets quit trashing entire groups because of that.

Lots of good dialog and questions in this thread, lots more crap that the Mods have to keep warning us about.

So here we are almost no one is happy, what is a good path forward? What can we as a group or individuals do to help cause a better outcome.

I am not a sheep guy so don't understand the biology to give any suggestion other than I think you have to fix the problem from where you are currently at, not by bemoaning the fact we don't like how we got here.

Sorry for the ramble that kind of bounced around.    Thanks to the ones from both sides that kept it civil so far, and to the Mods for letting it stay open and cleaning up where needed.

No on a side note.
From genealogy that a relative did I was told I am 1/16 Cherokee and 1/16 Blackfoot  so that would be 1/8 native American.  So I know this does not give me any full hunting rights but how about just a turkey     They are less that 1/8 the size of an elk!

[baker5150]

We've had successful cooperative management with other states and other groups involving animals but not this state or its agencies.

Does the Tribe have a Sheep biologist of some sort?

 

[grundy53]

Let's see a show of hands of how many would just let the state show up and do what they want, when they want and how they want on your property.

No questions, warnings or explanation.

First of all. No one is suggesting that. Not even close. So quit building straw men. Second of all. It's not your property. It's ceded land not the reservation.

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[grundy53]

Let's see a show of hands of how many would just let the state show up and do what they want, when they want and how they want on your property.

No questions, warnings or explanation.

After thinking about this some more this is exactly what the Yakamas are doing.

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[huntnphool]

why should we be the ones to initiate the dialog when we dont have to.

 And there it is in a nutshell!

If neither side is reaching out neither has the moral high ground.   

My ignorant outside opinion is 2 sides wanted to hunt sheep and/or sell tags.   Both did.
Would it be great if both sides started from a big picture conservation standpoint before setting limits - sure
Would it be great if everyone worked together and gets everything right the first time - you bet.
But that is not where we are, both sides have some bad apples lets quit trashing entire groups because of that.

Lots of good dialog and questions in this thread, lots more crap that the Mods have to keep warning us about.

So here we are almost no one is happy, what is a good path forward? What can we as a group or individuals do to help cause a better outcome.

I am not a sheep guy so don't understand the biology to give any suggestion other than I think you have to fix the problem from where you are currently at, not by bemoaning the fact we don't like how we got here.

Sorry for the ramble that kind of bounced around.    Thanks to the ones from both sides that kept it civil so far, and to the Mods for letting it stay open and cleaning up where needed.

No on a side note.
From genealogy that a relative did I was told I am 1/16 Cherokee and 1/16 Blackfoot  so that would be 1/8 native American.  So I know this does not give me any full hunting rights but how about just a turkey     They are less that 1/8 the size of an elk!

 So your wife has you served with divorce papers and tells you to pack your stuff and get out. You had no idea she was going to do it, and it never occurred to you to ask about such a thing, after all you thought everything was fine.....that's okay in your mind?

 Would it not be better if she explained what she wanted and asked you to work with her? Then if you don't, it's on you.

[PlateauNDN]

Baker, yes we have our own bios.

No, it's not our property anymore, but we retained rights on all of our Ceded land and U & A areas.

You are correct, nobody is suggesting that here but do you have the experience and history of the state and how they handle Tribes?

[idahohuntr]

There it is indeed. Again, when this state decides it has another government to deal with and treats it as such and not the ugly step child then maybe they will get better treatment.

Treat others how you want to be treated, guess the State never heard of that.

Completely agree...I put most blame on the state for less than desirable cooperation.  I've personally witnessed the condescension from wdfw towards tribes on hunting issues...their ignorance is astounding.

This hysteria over 2 additional sheep tags seems ridiculous.  Is harvesting 2 more rams going to imperil the herd?  Combined with the state tags how many rams are we talking per year? It seems more like people are whining that the swakane wont be a trophy unit like it has been...not that the sheep will be on the brink of extinction.

[baker5150]

Baker, yes we have our own bios.

No, it's not our property anymore, but we retained rights on all of our Ceded land and U & A areas.

You are correct, nobody is suggesting that here but do you have the experience and history of the state and how they handle Tribes?

Thank You for the response.

[bobcat]

I'm also failing to see what the big deal is about these two tags.

My issue with the Yakama tribe is their year round deer and elk seasons with no limit per person. I really couldn't care less about the two sheep tags in the Swakane.

Although I do agree communication between the Yakamas and the WDFW on this issue should happen. It apparently didn't, but oh well. Again, it's only two tags. That many rams, or more, likely are killed by cars on the highway each year.

[Rainier10]

So my frustration level was pretty high over the swakane deal but now I am hearing that there is no discussion between the tribes and WDFW on sheep at all.  So I would say my frustration level is just as high it is now just spread out over the no communication at all part of this and the fact that with no communication the tribe has decided to have two tags in Swakane.  Yes communication about the new tags would have been great but if nobody has been talking to each other about current GMU's that have native and non native tags being given out why would anyone think that there would be communication about Swakane having both user groups having tags and what number of tags were being given out.

Hopefully my 15% cost to hunt increase will go towards a box of donuts and a gallon of coffee for the WDFW and tribes to sit down and have a discussion.

[Rainier10]

Page 88 of the hunting regulations.

The number of settlers was increasing in
Washington by the mid-1800s At that time
the United States government negotiated
treaties with Washington Indian tribes for
the peaceful settlement of the territory
The treaties established reservations for
the exclusive use of the tribes In addition,
the treaty tribes kept their right to hunt,
fish, and gather on lands off of the
reservations All treaties contain similar
language reserving the right to hunt, fish,
and conduct other traditional activities on
lands off of the reservations: “The right of
taking fish, at all usual accustomed grounds
and stations, if further secured to said
Indians in common with the citizens of the
territory…together with the privilege of
hunting…on open and unclaimed lands ”
Treaties are formal contracts between
nations Treaty rights belong to tribes
They are not the property of any individual
tribal member Only tribal members may
exercise treaty hunting rights Members of
one tribe cannot exercise the treaty rights of
another tribe Treaty tribes in Washington
establish hunting regulations through their
own government process Federal and
state courts have ruled that public land is
“open and unclaimed” unless it is being
put to a use that is inconsistent with tribal
hunting Private property is not considered
to be “open and unclaimed,” but it must be
obvious that someone owns the property
There are 24 tribes that have off-reservation
hunting rights within Washington State
There are also many tribes in Washington
that do not have treaties or rights to
hunt off of their reservations Both tribal
and state-licensed hunters hunt game
animals across the state It is important
that Washington Department of Fish
and Wildlife and tribes work together to
manage wildlife This can be complicated
because tribal ceremonial and subsistence
hunting and state recreational hunting are
based on different cultural heritages and
legal frameworks
Many tribal governments take an active role
in the management of wildlife resources
Most tribes with off-reservation hunting
rights develop their own regulations and
management strategies In recent years,
WDFW and various tribes have worked
together to develop management plans for
wildlife populations and to re-build game
populations For more information about
tribal hunting, please see the Department
website at: wdfw wa gov/hunting/tribal.

Interesting and sounds good but I am not sure how much working together to manage game is really going on.

[trophyhunt]

I’m sure Wdfw would have loved to sit down and talk about these important 2 tags, if they had a clue as to what was going to happen.  It’s ridiculous that they were not involved.

[b0bbyg]

why should we be the ones to initiate the dialog when we dont have to.

 And there it is in a nutshell!

If neither side is reaching out neither has the moral high ground.   

My ignorant outside opinion is 2 sides wanted to hunt sheep and/or sell tags.   Both did.
Would it be great if both sides started from a big picture conservation standpoint before setting limits - sure
Would it be great if everyone worked together and gets everything right the first time - you bet.
But that is not where we are, both sides have some bad apples lets quit trashing entire groups because of that.

Lots of good dialog and questions in this thread, lots more crap that the Mods have to keep warning us about.

So here we are almost no one is happy, what is a good path forward? What can we as a group or individuals do to help cause a better outcome.

I am not a sheep guy so don't understand the biology to give any suggestion other than I think you have to fix the problem from where you are currently at, not by bemoaning the fact we don't like how we got here.

Sorry for the ramble that kind of bounced around.    Thanks to the ones from both sides that kept it civil so far, and to the Mods for letting it stay open and cleaning up where needed.

No on a side note.
From genealogy that a relative did I was told I am 1/16 Cherokee and 1/16 Blackfoot  so that would be 1/8 native American.  So I know this does not give me any full hunting rights but how about just a turkey     They are less that 1/8 the size of an elk!

 So your wife has you served with divorce papers and tells you to pack your stuff and get out. You had no idea she was going to do it, and it never occurred to you to ask about such a thing, after all you thought everything was fine.....that's okay in your mind?

 Would it not be better if she explained what she wanted and asked you to work with her? Then if you don't, it's on you.

Yes it would be better if there was a discussion before action is taken, That is what I thought I said.
I also agree if one group reaches out and is ignored then the blame falls more on the group who did not want to work together.
I just don't feel like there is any evidence either side reached out and we should not pin the blame on just one party in this case.

From what I understand ( mostly from the discussion in this thread )  Non-tribal hunters with a proper tag can hunt the area/herd in question and a tribal member who holds a proper tag can also legally hunt the area/herd. Neither group ever went to the other and said hey guys there is one group of sheep living over on that hill, how many tags is reasonable to make available?

If there is any species goat/sheep/Moose that 2 groups have legal ability to harvest then both groups should work together. Just because one sets a limit first does not make their decision better.  I think both management groups have failed in not reaching out to the other often enough.

I am not defending the way these 2 tags were decided upon, just saying they are not more in the wrong than the WDFW.
Both groups could be do better. 

[jackelope]

There it is indeed. Again, when this state decides it has another government to deal with and treats it as such and not the ugly step child then maybe they will get better treatment.

Treat others how you want to be treated, guess the State never heard of that.

Completely agree...I put most blame on the state for less than desirable cooperation.  I've personally witnessed the condescension from wdfw towards tribes on hunting issues...their ignorance is astounding.

This hysteria over 2 additional sheep tags seems ridiculous.  Is harvesting 2 more rams going to imperil the herd?  Combined with the state tags how many rams are we talking per year? It seems more like people are whining that the swakane wont be a trophy unit like it has been...not that the sheep will be on the brink of extinction.

How many sheep are in the Swakane unit?

How many rams can the herd handle losing per year?

You seem to think you know what you're talking about. Throw down the data that makes you believe the herd can handle 5 tags and 5 rams killed annually for the next few years.

Rather than continuing to say what you think the angle is that everyone else is working, lets hear your data that makes you believe there is nothing to worry about. Show us that the herd will be fine.