Blue Mountain Elk Herd Management Plan

[10heiau]

Please let me know your input for the blue mountain elk herd management plan 2015-2021. There is a public meeting being held in Spokane and Dayton on August 29 and August 30, respectively. I will attend the Dayton meeting and I will be happy to bring any thoughts forward representing your concerns regarding the blue mountain elk herd. I encourage all forum members with vested interest in this elk herd to attend one of the meetings.

Reading material prior to your attendance at the meeting:
https://elknetwork.com/public-input-sought-on-blue-mountains-elk-herd-plan/
https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/02010/wdfw02010.pdf
https://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01961/wdfw01961.pdf
   - Topic of discussion: "Shed antler hunting activity continues to be a concern for elk on the winter range."
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2017/statewide.pdf
   - Topic of discussion: "Biologists in District 3 conduct a semi-annual helicopter survey within the core elk areas to
estimate the post-winter population size. In the spring of 2017, biologists generated a population
estimate of 4,396 (90 percent Confidence Interval of +/- 165) elk. Surveys are conducted along
the state line of Oregon (and within Oregon), resulting in approximately 500-600 elk being
classified that likely are not available for harvest in Washington during the fall. The average
five-year population estimate prior to 2017 was 5,360 elk, which is 18% higher than the 2017
estimate.
Calf ratios declined substantially in 2017 and were estimated at 17.8 calves:100 cows (90 percent
CI +/- 0.7) in 2017, considerably lower than the five-year average of 30.4. Bull ratios remained
stable this past year, but total bulls declined by 25 percent from the 2016 estimate, which will
result in decreased number of branched-bull permits in years to come. This decline in the
number of elk in the Blue Mountains is a result of the hard winter observed this past year. The
substantial decline in the number of calves making it through the 2016/2017 winter will also
result in a large decline in the number of yearling bulls (spikes) available for harvest during the
fall of 2017."

If you would like to organize prior to this meeting to discuss the blue mountain elk herd management plan please let me know via response to this thread or private message.

Thank you,
10heiau

[trophyhunt]

There are a few guys on this forum that guide or help in the blues that will have great points to make, I hope they send you some ideas.  My personal belief is the biggest problem right now affecting the herds are the predators, wolves being a big part.  Since the wolves have taken more of a hold the numbers are dropping quick within the herds.  But I don't see wdfw doing anything about that.  More fish and game police in the area to help with poaching would be great as well, and of course, cooperation from the local tribes.  If the herd numbers keep dropping, I think the tags should also drop. Sad deal, used to be the best herd in the state, I hope it's future can turn around. 

[shallowforks]

I feel that the shed hunting, could be having as equally negative affect on the overall herd health/size as the wolves, but that being said the decrease in numbers recently is surely due to that hard winter. Now the herds ability to recover quickly from harsh winters is probably what the above concerns affect the most. I would be open to talks of ways to keep people out of the woods until the animals can recover some from winter and disperse from the core wintering areas. Eg: oak creek and other feed area/wintering area closures in the east cascades. Also allowing enhanced cougar hunting opportunities. Higher quota for those gmus inside the blues. Obviously theres nothing at the present time that can be done about wolves except to try and correlate/document rising wolf numbers with falling elk/deer numbers.

[nwwanderer]

Bears, cats, canids, cow hunts and crop damage should be top issues.  What is being done to improve habitat at elevation?  Getting elk off of fields after gleaning all winter and calving over much larger areas would help ratios.

[Timberstalker]

It's a shame to see it go from where it was in the early 2000's and before to now.  One wouldn't believe the past, if they hadn't lived it. 

There's hope to save it, however I am not sure we have the right managers at the helm. 

I think it's important for all available sportsman to make their voice heard at these meetings.

The fact of the matter, is they need to hammer tags and general hunts for deer and elk, for a bit, like nearly abolish them.  Too much harvest from general residents, predators, tribal and poaching, as listed above.

I do think we are gonna see most general deer hunts removed from the Eastern GMU's.  That's from a very reliable source. 

[Woodchuck]

It's a shame to see it go from where it was in the early 2000's and before to now.  One wouldn't believe the past, if they hadn't lived it. 

There's hope to save it, however I am not sure we have the right managers at the helm. 

I think it's important for all available sportsman to make their voice heard at these meetings.

The fact of the matter, is they need to hammer tags and general hunts for deer and elk, for a bit, like nearly abolish them.  Too much harvest from general residents, predators, tribal and poaching, as listed above.

I do think we are gonna see most general deer hunts removed from the Eastern GMU's.  That's from a very reliable source.

It has been very hard to watch. I am debating going to the meeting in Dayton. I have a feeling my frustration level would be very high.

[trophyhunt]

It's a shame to see it go from where it was in the early 2000's and before to now.  One wouldn't believe the past, if they hadn't lived it. 

There's hope to save it, however I am not sure we have the right managers at the helm. 

I think it's important for all available sportsman to make their voice heard at these meetings.

The fact of the matter, is they need to hammer tags and general hunts for deer and elk, for a bit, like nearly abolish them.  Too much harvest from general residents, predators, tribal and poaching, as listed above.

I do think we are gonna see most general deer hunts removed from the Eastern GMU's.  That's from a very reliable source.

It has been very hard to watch. I am debating going to the meeting in Dayton. I have a feeling my frustration level would be very high.

I hope you go, I would if it wasn’t such a drive.  We need your voice to be heard, but like timber said, I have no trust in our management practices right now.

[eastfork]

We need more than one voice. Maybe we can get a group from the westside to carpool over. I'm willing
 

[jstone]

I have no faith in this state. I work for the man and you don’t need to know what your doing, just say the correct thing and you make it to the top. This management sucks. Politics screw things up.

[ShedHead20]

Thanks for the post, 10heiau.

I wont be able to attend. I wish I could.

As for my opinion on the topic, the large number of depredation tags that the local farmers receive, every year from the WDFW, is a major contributor to the decrease in the herd size. Especially in the Dayton unit. Knowing local farmers and knowing how the tags are distributed, most of the members on this forum would and should be absolutely baffled at the amount of cow elk that are killed all summer long. I am sure that pregnant cows are killed often.

Secondly, over harvest by Native's has been an issues since the 1990's. The Nez Perce will and do exercise their rights/privileges to take elk in the blues. Written in 1855, at the treaty ground, Camp Stevens, in the Walla‐Walla Valley, it was stated "The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams where running through or bordering said reservation
is further secured to said Indians: as also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed places in common with citizens of the territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing, together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land."  - https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5108216.pdf. This was written with the intent of Native Americans being able to continue to hunt for substance and ceremonial purposes. One with sound judgement would believe that a few cows or spikes and a small number of bulls would be sufficient to fulfill these needs. Strangely enough, it's all big bulls taken with modern rifles in August and September. In the past, the number of bulls alone that were killed was approaching 40 bulls per year. Sounds like they enjoy the antlers more than the substance meat they say they require. Just my two cents though.

Thirdly, predator management needs improvement. Cougars are a bigger issue than wolves. Do not get me wrong, wolves are and will be a bigger problem in the near future. It seems that folks that arent from the area say there are a whole pile of wolves in those mountains. Not necessary true. Its hard to walk in the Blues in the fall and winter without seeing a cat track. And with the quota for the area being 4-6, we are losing an uphill battle on cougars. I honestly believe that you can find 2-4 cats on my family's property right now that is within one of those units. We need to work on cats more than dogs. And work the cats WITH domestic dogs. Hard to do when the non-hunters believe the practice of predator management is cruel to the wildlife. Maybe more of them should ride pedal bikes around North Bend, WA. Again, my two cents but if cougar management is not improved, locals will employ S.S.S. for cats as well as wolves.

Fourthly, the number of special draw tags for bulls and cows must be lowered. I do not want this to happen either. But, to save the heard and save the quality, we must take a walk in this direction. This could be one of the saving graces. This is something that may only need to last a couple of seasons. Enough time to get some bounce back. Currently, as of the 2018-2019 WDFW regulations, there are 194 possible quality bull tag holders. This is the total of rifle, muzzleloader, and archery for the units 154, 157, 162, 169, 172, 166, 175, Ten Ten, and Ten Forty. No wonder why our herd is decreasing. And not the mention the possible 221 artlessness tags that are drawn and all of the other cows harvested in general archery for the Ten Ten unit.
                        - Lets not forget about all the poaching on bulls as well.

Fifthly, the WDFW issuing out "Hunt by Reservation" areas sounds like a great idea. I love the fact that more ground is open to the public. But, on the flip side, i have first hand experience in seeing what the landowner receives for the trade. The land owner that I know received up to 5 big bull tags per year, 10 whitetail deer tags, 10 mule deer tags and 10 cow tags to be taken on their property by the landowner and friends. This lasted for 3 years. I can personally say for a fact that all the bull tags were filled each year. Often from the owner shooting them off his 4-wheeler in September with rifle. This all happened on a 4000 acre parcel. Thats a lot of death from one guy on one piece of land in critical elk feeding, breeding, calving, and wintering ground. I dont see much for elk there anymore. No, my family was not involved. These "Hunt by Reservation" should continue to happen, but, in my opinion they need to be revisited. I am not sure if this has happened with all of the "Hunt by Reservation" areas, this is an example that i am aware of.   

The Blue Mountain elk herd has a mountain of issues that are not in its favor. I have seen the decline happen from a young age until now. It is heartbreaking to watch. Hopefully, we as hunters and conservationists can make our voices and our thoughts heard. We need change, please attend this meeting if possible. We need your help. 

[meatwhack]

As stated above this herd has been going down hill for a number of years. If you go back as little as 10 years there were substantially more animals. I’d put cougars and wolfs at the top of the list for culprits to the problem at this time and I couldn’t even say which is doing more damage because I think they’re both hammering the population. It used to be nothing to go for an evening drive and see a couple hundred head of elk which just doesn’t happen anymore.

[floatinghat]

"Fifthly, the WDFW issuing out "Hunt by Reservation" areas sounds like a great idea. I love the fact that more ground is open to the public. But, on the flip side, i have first hand experience in seeing what the landowner receives for the trade. The land owner that I know received up to 5 big bull tags per year, 10 whitetail deer tags, 10 mule deer tags and 10 cow tags to be taken on their property by the landowner and friends. This lasted for 3 years. I can personally say for a fact that all the bull tags were filled each year. Often from the owner shooting them off his 4-wheeler in September with rifle. This all happened on a 4000 acre parcel. Thats a lot of death from one guy on one piece of land in critical elk feeding, breeding, calving, and wintering ground. I dont see much for elk there anymore. No, my family was not involved. These "Hunt by Reservation" should continue to happen, but, in my opinion they need to be revisited. I am not sure if this has happened with all of the "Hunt by Reservation" areas, this is an example that i am aware of."

If this truely is the case I would guess the documentation could be aquired via public information request.  Then out the management that proposed/approved/ etc the policy and fire them.

[meatwhack]

The hunt by reservation that I believe is being discussed dropped out of the program recently.

[ShedHead20]

The hunt by reservation that I believe is being discussed dropped out of the program recently.

The "Hunt by Reservation" area has been dropped from the program. This was due to the Land Owner not wanting to negotiate new terms with the WDFW. I have no idea what the terms were, but knowing the land owner's personality, Im guessing they wanted to take away some of his tags. I could be wrong though.

[floatinghat]

The hunt by reservation that I believe is being discussed dropped out of the program recently.

The "Hunt by Reservation" area has been dropped from the program. This was due to the Land Owner not wanting to negotiate new terms with the WDFW. I have no idea what the terms were, but knowing the land owner's personality, Im guessing they wanted to take away some of his tags. I could be wrong though.

Should still be able to get the documentation via the request, how many other animal might have been taken in other area if this is true?

[meatwhack]

This is definitely true. The last time I heard the tag allotment I thought it was slightly less but I can’t remember the exact number so it may be what was posted.

[JWEBB]

What a joke! Get rid of the wolves and allow hound hunting for cats and more spring bear tags. Problem solved! And yes I know a lot of folks here won’t agree with me but I have watched this elk slaughter go on for way too many years. Predators have to be reduced period! So sick and tired of all these plans and meetings by wdfw when the answer to the problem is right in front of them. What a waste of our money

[Timberstalker]

What a joke! Get rid of the wolves and allow hound hunting for cats and more spring bear tags. Problem solved! And yes I know a lot of folks here won’t agree with me but I have watched this elk slaughter go on for way too many years. Predators have to be reduced period! So sick and tired of all these plans and meetings by wdfw when the answer to the problem is right in front of them. What a waste of our money

No disagreement here.
Nail head hit!!

[nwhunter]

Cut tags and kill cats is a step in the right direction.. We have gotten trail cam pics with multiple cats lots of times. If we can't hunt with dogs then get rid of the cougar quotas and let the shed hunters pack a rifle and that would help a bunch, they won't get all of them don't worry.. Invite Pat Fowler to the meeting but he is probably so disgusted with what has happened he wouldn't come.. even though he predicted it.. He told me once that him fighting for low tag numbers made a lot of people mad but it was working which was true... He said when he retired they would raise the tag numbers and the results would show up in a hurry and here we are... SAD..

[Timberstalker]

Cut tags and kill cats is a step in the right direction.. We have gotten trail cam pics with multiple cats lots of times. If we can't hunt with dogs then get rid of the cougar quotas and let the shed hunters pack a rifle and that would help a bunch, they won't get all of them don't worry.. Invite Pat Fowler to the meeting but he is probably so disgusted with what has happened he wouldn't come.. even though he predicted it.. He told me once that him fighting for low tag numbers made a lot of people mad but it was working which was true... He said when he retired they would raise the tag numbers and the results would show up in a hurry and here we are... SAD..

I agree with this, however I think the predators are the biggest problem.

[bolsen]

No mention of cutting back on general season spike hunts?

[JWEBB]

What a joke! Get rid of the wolves and allow hound hunting for cats and more spring bear tags. Problem solved! And yes I know a lot of folks here won’t agree with me but I have watched this elk slaughter go on for way too many years. Predators have to be reduced period! So sick and tired of all these plans and meetings by wdfw when the answer to the problem is right in front of them. What a waste of our money

No disagreement here.
Nail head hit!!

 

[Mtnwalker]

There are a few guys on this forum that guide or help in the blues that will have great points to make, I hope they send you some ideas.  My personal belief is the biggest problem right now affecting the herds are the predators, wolves being a big part.  Since the wolves have taken more of a hold the numbers are dropping quick within the herds.  But I don't see wdfw doing anything about that.  More fish and game police in the area to help with poaching would be great as well, and of course, cooperation from the local tribes.  If the herd numbers keep dropping, I think the tags should also drop. Sad deal, used to be the best herd in the state, I hope it's future can turn around.

Aug 29-30, almost seems they timed the meetings with hopes that said guides would be too busy to make it, I know of at least one who has a whole lot to say on the matter

[JWEBB]

No mention of cutting back on general season spike hunts?

The success rate for spike hunters in the blues is extremely low. It has no impact on the herd. Predators my friend! Predators!

[nwhunter]

There are a few guys on this forum that guide or help in the blues that will have great points to make, I hope they send you some ideas.  My personal belief is the biggest problem right now affecting the herds are the predators, wolves being a big part.  Since the wolves have taken more of a hold the numbers are dropping quick within the herds.  But I don't see wdfw doing anything about that.  More fish and game police in the area to help with poaching would be great as well, and of course, cooperation from the local tribes.  If the herd numbers keep dropping, I think the tags should also drop. Sad deal, used to be the best herd in the state, I hope it's future can turn around.

Aug 29-30, almost seems they timed the meetings with hopes that said guides would be too busy to make it, I know of at least one who has a whole lot to say on the matter

Timing of this kind of meeting is as interesting as flying for the elk herd counts right before shed season... Whatever fits their agenda maybe..

[Tbar]

I feel that the shed hunting, could be having as equally negative affect on the overall herd health/size as the wolves, but that being said the decrease in numbers recently is surely due to that hard winter. Now the herds ability to recover quickly from harsh winters is probably what the above concerns affect the most. I would be open to talks of ways to keep people out of the woods until the animals can recover some from winter and disperse from the core wintering areas. Eg: oak creek and other feed area/wintering area closures in the east cascades. Also allowing enhanced cougar hunting opportunities. Higher quota for those gmus inside the blues. Obviously theres nothing at the present time that can be done about wolves except to try and correlate/document rising wolf numbers with falling elk/deer numbers.

The negative effects of shed hunting is being recognized by managers throughout the west.  Many states with less people and more animals have seen the need to regulate shed hunting to protect the animals at the most critical time of the year. It's amazing to me what shed hunting community turns a blind eye to the impacts they are having.

[nwwanderer]

Exactly ten in Spokane, 5 WDFW staff, 4 hunters and one land owner.  No real discussion just how it is going to be.

[JWEBB]

Exactly ten in Spokane, 5 WDFW staff, 4 hunters and one land owner.  No real discussion just how it is going to be.

Sounds about right

[huntnphool]

 The landowner tags are/were a very sore subject with the locals a couple years ago when my 16 year old daughter drew one of the best tags in the area.

 A couple of the local land owners were so pissed at the outcome of landowner tags, they decided to take a stand with WDFW and use my daughter as a pawn in their argument.

 The whole issue opened our eyes to both WDFW and what we were led to believe were honorable and respectable land owners. In the end we were very disappointed in several of the landowners either going back on their word or using my daughters tag as leverage with WDFW.

 The few bright spots in the experience were a few local land owners and a couple members on this site that did what they could to help out.

[Skyvalhunter]

And the result was?

[trophyhunt]

And the result was?

[10heiau]

I don't know the exact head count for the night but I estimate around 30 citizens attended the meeting. Locals from Columbia and Garfield counties seemed to make up the majority of those in attendance. The management plan presentation lasted around thirty minutes. After Wik was finished with the presentation the floor was opened for questions.

The remainder of the night consisted of the citizens passionately stating their displeasure with the lack of predator control. Some of the citizens pointed out that the elk plan's population objective seems out of reach unless more focus is placed on reducing cougar population (as discussed in the plan, the Blue Mountain cougar population is the densest in the state). Bears and wolves were also discussed. Questions were raised regarding spring bear tags. A clever strategy for increasing the number of spring bear permits was also discussed during one person's question.

When asked why they were not personally doing more to control predator population and represent the interests of big game hunters and ungulate herds, the biologists responded to most of the questions with something along the lines of 'we want to see more cougars get killed but it is difficult to control predator populations because of the way the decision making process in WDFW is structured'. That is not an exact quote - just a generalization of their typical response. Another generalization: 'people with the polar opposite views of the folks in this room have just as large of voice as hunters in this state. It is our job to manage game based on the desires of ALL of our constituents.' Again that is not an exact quote. I'm going off of memory here 

It was revealed that WDFW is going to conduct a bear population study in the blue mountains starting next year. Right now they have zero statistical data with which to justify increasing spring bear tag numbers. The study will take a few years to complete.

My personal takeaways from the meeting:

1. The biologists at the meeting got to see firsthand the passion that exists for the blue mountain elk herd. Even though the citizens were quite coarse at times, it was obvious that we value a large and healthy blue mountain elk herd much more than predator population. I hope the biologists carry that thought with them as they move forward and and that they push harder to adjust herds in a manner that reflects the desires of the citizens that utilize this resource.

2. In contrast to my previous point, I came to the realization that the biologists conducting this meeting are NOT the individuals that we will be able to rely on to adjust herd numbers in favor of ungulate populations. I think if they had different personalities an individual in their position might be able to push for the change that hunters desire. Over time, maybe with enough pressure, the biologists could potentially start to represent our desire to bolster our ungulate populations. Unfortunately I think the brunt of that burden will be placed on us as citizens and hunters.

3. As hunters we need to organize. We need a larger organized voice and presence with the commission. Our voice needs to be loud and persistent but not belligerent. This topic has been discussed in several threads over the past few years. I certainly have not done my part to contribute to this part of my life that I enjoy so much. I intend to become more active in an organization where I can make a difference to help sway the tide in our favor.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,
10heiau

[B4noon]

Answered the problem to lack of management in this state right their by using the voices of non professionals opinions on what is best for the resource instead of using their education as a professional biologist to decide what's best for the landscape and resource.  If were going to play the loudest voice wins I guess we can hire a high school graduate at minimum wage to manage based on that and not science and data.  I appreciate as a hunter when they take our opinions and ideas into play but even with that they need to be able to back it with data not just because we say that's what we desire and theirs more of us then them.  Until they get past the fear of hurting feelings and lawsuits and start managing based on science lookout.  Wik is an excellent professional and does his job in the best interest of the resource hands down I think unfortunately he gets his hands tied from above his level