Guided vs Unguided

[jjhunter]

Okay, after reading a BUNCH of posts on here, I have come to the conclusion that many hunters, not only on this site, but across the board, have a negative opinion of guided, private land hunts.  Negative?  Maybe that is not the right word?  How about, most hunters find a public land, self-guided trophy more fulfilling than one that they "paid for".  With this in mind, I pose a question:

Say I buy a landowner tag in CO unit 21 (3rd Season) or unit 70 (4th season) and hunt public land, unguided and kill a 190" (gross) deer every year (which is very possible).  Does that make me a great hunter just because I killed huge deer, unguided on public land?   My personal opinion is that it does not make you a good hunter, great hunter, or poor hunter.  I don't think it has anything to do with hunting expertise, nor should it add or take away from the fullfillment of harvesting a trophy animal.  For many, paying a guide is the only option to hunting a specific species or area.  Additionally, some guided hunts may provide the greatest physical or mental challenge (dall sheep, for example).  What about states like Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Colorado, Montana, where you can greatly increase the odds or guarantee the opportunity to hunt that state every year by using a guide?  For people who hunt Montana or Idaho, even though you may hunt public land, you are essentially doing the same thing that guides do: limiting the competition by "buying" the right to hunt where not everyone has the same opportunity.  EX:  Not everyone can afford to hunt Idaho, Montana, Oregon, etc.   

I have never been on a guided hunt myself, but I do not discredit the harvesting of trophy animals that are taken on these hunts.   If you take a trophy animal during normal shooting hours and in season, you should be proud of a great accomplishment regardless of how/when/where.

These are just a few random thoughts....curious to see what you all think?

[boneaddict]

I would say there is nothing wrong with a guided hunt.   I do think there should be more satisfaction iof you do it yourself.  Seems only logical to me if you do all the ground work and planning and such all on your own merit, adding satisfaction for every bit you put intothe hunt, like say handloading your own ammo.  I would think or at least to me, a trophy on the wall would mean more if I knew I got it myself and not because of a guides knowledge, his calling or whatever.  If someone would call my bull in for me and so forth and I killed it, I have no problem sharing the hunt, but its exactly that, the trophy is almost as much his.  Its pretty easy to pull the trigger if you know what I mean. 
I also don't think its a bad thing to hunt on a big open range ranch, now high fence thing is a bit of a different subject.  It comes down to what money can buy.  Again, not a level playing field.  Nothing wrong with the trophy at all.  Now to put it all into perspective, I have a lot more respect for someone like Cameron Haines who hunts a lot on his own back in the bush where we all can hunt, than I do for Guy Eastman who takes Daddies money and hunts on a private ranch where several guys have watched these animals all summer, know their habits, know what is available, and essentially shooting not quite but close to what might be someones pet.  And....then doing it everytime, and then make a living on selling "the hunt" to you.

Hope I was clear on my explanation and in answering your question. 

[Hoytstaffshooter83]

I have no issue, its not realistic fo rthe average guy to scout out of state all summer and then hunt, thats is what guides do, its not like you go on a guided hunt, and dont "hunt" and just kill.. on my guided back country idaho elk hunt I killed myself for a week in the thickest, steepest area I have ever been into, to have 1 decent and 1 almost chance on bulls.. if thats not hunting im not sure what is

[Craig]

I have been on two guides hunts. Both of them have been far from a cake walk and I had to work for the game I got. I think some people think if you go on a guided hunt you just walk up and shoot something. I like the DIY hunts just as much as anyone else. If. I ever draw a killer tag someplace and I can't scout I will use a guide if I could afford it.

[jjhunter]

I agree, Bone.    I personally like to do the research and hunt off my own back.  Especially in new locales and terrains that I do not have experience hunting in.  I am definitely with you on the challenge!  But, if I kill a 200" mule deer some day, it will be on either on a primo, limited draw tag, landowner tag, or guided hunt.  Any way it happens, I will be grinning from ear to ear.  As for Cameron, no competition - that guy is an animal!

[jjhunter]

I have no issue, its not realistic fo rthe average guy to scout out of state all summer and then hunt, thats is what guides do, its not like you go on a guided hunt, and dont "hunt" and just kill.. on my guided back country idaho elk hunt I killed myself for a week in the thickest, steepest area I have ever been into, to have 1 decent and 1 almost chance on bulls.. if thats not hunting im not sure what is

After 10 year of hunting N Idaho, I feel your pain!  No such thing as an easy trophy in that country!

[jackelope]

I don't think anyone can say what is rewarding and fulfilling to someone else. i've never been on a guided hunt, but i don't think it's good or bad to go guided. i also hunt private and public land. i hunt private because i can. is it still a challenge? is it thick and steep and gnarly in places? yep. the appeal of a pack string headed into the wilderness on an elk hunt is huge to me...i would love to do it someday, but will likely never have the stock of my own, so i would be happy hiring an outfitter and doing it that way.
it's just like fishing. i tie my own flies and feel a whole lot more satisfaction when i catch a fish on my own tie. i don't think it's wrong or right to fish with flies you tie yourself, in fact most of the flies in my boxes are store bought.

[Colville]

I guess we'd have to define this: "great accomplishment".

"you take a trophy animal during normal shooting hours and in season, you should be proud of a great accomplishment.."

That's where I disagree. I'm sure you'd agree that shooting elk at an elk ranch in legal shooting hours is not an accomplishment. I do think that guided public land, wilderness/nf etc hunts are hunting pressured game in rugged terrain. There's absolutely no guarantee of a kill, let alone a great animal on these hunts. You get some advice and direction but still have to make the climbs and scour the land to come up with your trophy. This is also true of a lot of private hunts where the size of the piece, the terrain and game pops still make a guy really work to get his chance, like on public land.

On the other hand some private land deals are dunks. There's little or no work involved. Un-pressured game often moving to and from predictable feed from agriculture or created feeding areas.  The hunter picks over numerous animals taking the time to debate the width/mass and score of numerous ones before deciding which he'll finally shoot. I don't think shooting straight is an accomplishment. I'm not saying that guy shouldn't be able to do this or that the land owner or guide shouldn't sell the right. It's just that being able to hit your target after picking exactly the one you want to kill with relatively little physical effort involved  just doesn't rate as much of an accomplishment to me. But you should be allowed to do it to your heats content if it works for you.

[Hoytstaffshooter83]

   well said colville.. I spent over 4k on my idaho hunt in unit 10, we hiked over 10 miles a day up and down terrain so steep you could lean forward and kiss the ground, the bulls shut up after day 3 and it was almost impossible after that. wemoved cam 3 times on mules for over 15 miles in the back country near the montana border.. that is hunting.. like you said the trophy ranch hunts or the easy no effort hunts are not for me, I think if you work for it, public or private land makes no diff, thats something to be proud of, scouting time, research and hard work pay off.....

[GoldTip]

I've been on two guided hunts in my lifetime, and will go on a few others, currently planning a Goat hunt in BC, my first two guided were Caribou in Quebec, where the guide sat in camp and said, "see that ridge over there?  They killed 4 bulls there last week."  The second was a Moose hunt in Alberta this past fall.  Now both were in Canada, and the next will be in Canada as well, where none of us have a real choice to go unguided.  

But, I have no qualms with someone who puts in every year and finally draws that New mexico big bull tag and hires an outfitter.  Would he probably be more satisfied with the hunt if he killed a 390 bull all on his own, I know I would, but it doesn't mean everyone else would?  Well some would and some wouldn't feel any more satisfaction with a DIY for that bull than if they did it guided.  Truly as long as it's legal, it doesn't matter to me.  Some just don't have the time to put into scouting another state, especially one that far away.  I say to each their own, as long as it's legal.

[jjhunter]

I don't think shooting straight is an accomplishment.

You obviously haven't seen some of my buddies shoot!  

I obviously wasn't talking about elk ranches, high fence, governor's tags, or even places like the Heaton Ranch.  I am just saying that  there is no such thing as a slam-dunk 400" bull or 200" deer shot legally during a regular, state-mandated season.   

[Coasthunterjay]

Well i really like your question.....This would be my 2 cents but thats what you wanted....heres what i think from my stand point.

I have been guiding big game animals for about eight years and for a well known outfitter for three years now and i can tell you that regardless or not every person i have ever guided has been proud of what they shot or even just the experiance they had with us....

I personnely hunt completely different properties on the oppisite side of the state than where i guide and i can say really the only benefit of guided hunts is for people who are very busy and just dont have enough time to scout out a property and to see if there property has potential game on it or not.

Scouting and finding properties that have good game can take years. I know this personnely myself.....took me several years to find the animals that i hunt and how they act.... As a guide we try to take the guessing out of the hunt. We make sure that all guys that are with us have a good time. For some people getting an animal is the only way they can have a good time, to others its just being there with us in the outdoors...... Good company, good stories, and a higher possability of getting a good animal, if not a trophy animal. Also in the mean time we raise there possability of getting an animal by allowing them to hunt several properties with alot of diffeent communities of animals......

Some guys actually just like the conversaion and the companionship they get with the guides and outfitters. But its all in the end when there leaving that you really know whether they had a good time or not....Most guys dont want to leave....i dont blame em. Sometimes i dont want the guys to leave also. We really have a good time!


Either way you should be proud of any animal you get...regardless of whether it was guided or not....it really just depends on the person who gets it....the bigger person is the one who doesnt get an animal and still has the time of there lives.
But then again...

[Buckrub]

I don't think shooting straight is an accomplishment.

You obviously haven't seen some of my buddies shoot!  

I obviously wasn't talking about elk ranches, high fence, governor's tags, or even places like the Heaton Ranch.  I am just saying that  there is no such thing as a slam-dunk 400" bull or 200" deer shot legally during a regular, state-mandated season.   

There is always the possibility of a trophy public land animal. Slam Dunk doesn't happen.
I have been on quite a few drop camps and guided hunts, some good and some a complete joke.
I don't hunt high fence hunts and haven't found any guided hunts that didn't involve some hard work and a bit of luck.

I see nothing wrong with guided hunts....high fence wouldn't be considered hunting and an animal doesn't qualify for a record book.

I have had some of my best hunts on drop camp wilderness hunts, self guided.

[jjhunter]

It is definitely interesting to me to hear from people who have gone self-guided, semi-guided, fully guided and guides themselves.  Great feed-back.   

Goldtip, I have some hunting videos that show BC goat hunts.  Those can be intense to say the least!

[boneaddict]

I had no idea you guided Coast.

[jackelope]

me neither, who do you guide for?
thats awesome.

[Jeremiah P]

I've been on a few guided hunts and by no means has any of them been a slam dunk, one in wyoming was the hardest hunt I've ever been on. We hiked 10-12 miles a day in nasty country, it was an archery elk hunt in unit 7 that we were unsuccesful in. I think for the extreme hard to draw tags a guide is a wise investment if it's affordable.

[whacker1]

It sounds like most everyone agrees on the subject 

Distinct difference between - high fence private land & everything else outside High fenced private land.  My biggest qualms with guided hunts has been envy....  I think I am envious, because I can't afford to go on the types of hunts I would like to in BC, the Bob Marshall wilderness, and other remote areas. 

I can say on the limited guided fishing that I have done that I don't prize those fish caught with the guide quite like I do when it is completely do it myself.  Not to knock the guide or the experience, because he is a close friend, just a different experience.   I think this has slightly jaded me on some guided hunts.  I prefer to do it myself or drop camp without guides, because I think I enjoy that more than with guided help.  Not knocking those that guide or that pay for guides, because I think I would like to do both from year to year, but as of right now I am DIY, because of $$$$. 

My close friends paid $$$$$ for a guided hunt in the Bob Marshall wilderness last year.  Guide's wife got terminally sick, and so owner of guide service filled in as guide. They saw very few animals, didn't bring any deer or elk home, and overall poor experience.  So nothing is a slam dunk.  He still chooses to mix up his time between guides and DIY.  He just won't be going with that particular outfitter again.

Coast - who do you guide for & where?

[Kent Hunter]

My favorite way to hunt is a drop camp in the wilderness. It usually takes a year or two to get familiar with the country and learn what areas hold deer or travel routes for the deer. After you do that then there is no need for a guide. Learning an area on my own is a big part of the fun. If you don't have the time or such to learn and scout an area on your own then I think a guide is the way to go. Especially areas that are in the wilderness and a ways (miles) back in. 

[oneezreiter]

This is a subject that I have thought about a lot.  I have hunted for the last few years and have had very littly success.  I have had a lot of fun, but I have not brought anything home exept for some great memories.  Which don't get me wrong, I'm not upset about it, but it is a little frustrating.  How much will a guide teach you?  would I gain the the knowledge to be a better hunter or do I just need more time in the woods?

[huntnphool]

Some great points guys. I see nothing wrong with guided hunts as long as they are not high fence. Lets say you have hunted most of your life and by now a very accomplished hunter. You have been applying for 15+ years and finally draw that out of state OIL sheep tag. Obviously you have never hunted them before and its not like you have years of experience to fall back on when your hunt is 3 months away, there is only so much prep work you can do and driving to another state each weekend to scout is out of the question. Should you feel bad because you hire a guide from the area to help you out, I dont think so, I wouldn't look at someone differently if they did, in fact I would almost expect it.

[Coasthunterjay]

me neither, who do you guide for?
thats awesome.

Yeah i have been guiding for Joe at Sherman creek outfitters for now 3 years, And in the blues for a few years before that. But i was raised up here and have done very well for myself since i was a little kid so i kind of like to just share it with the rest when i get a chance....but i still come off as a young buck to everyone untill you get me in the woods...Thats my territory..... But the guiding is just part time. I am still in the military so that is always first, but whatever time i can get off and help i do...Joes a good outfitter to work for and i enjoy helping him out......

[whacker1]

Coast - Excellent - I have heard good things about Sherman Creek Outfitters

[Pathfinder101]

I would go guided if I could afford it.  Have never hunted guided, but I have fished guided and it was worth every penny.  After I graduated Ranger School I treated myself and a buddy to a guided day on the Madison in MT.  Even though the fishing was horrible (we each only hooked one brown), we learned sooo much we both said that is was like attending fly fishing school. 
I can imagine that hiring a hunting guide for an area you don't know would be much the same.

[TheHunt]

Coast summed it up pretty well.  I have never been on a guided hunt for big game.  I just do not have the money.  I do like reading how everyone has done on their guided hunt. 

[bow-n-head]

I don't have any problem with guided hunts on public land leases where everyone has a chance at a PUBLIC resource. But when an outfitter or landowner shuts down land so some over paid out of stater can shoot a deer in my back yard  . I can look at these animals from the county roads that I take care of but can't shoot one because I can't make 100,000 a year around here, ok I feel my blood preasuse spiking so I'll have to do some more ranting alittle later.

[norsepeak]

I agree, guided hunts aren't for everyone, but so far, all of my clients have said that they had a great time and were glad that they hired us.  I had an archery client last season that paid for a full 6 day hunt.  We hunted hard, and got real close a couple of times, but no luck...so after his hunt, the next client came into camp.  We took her out for three days and she scored on a nice 6x7 bull.  So after she left, I took the remaining three days of her hunt took the first client at no charge.  We ended up hunting 10 days with the first client, but still didn't get him a bull.  At the end of the season he shook my hand and said the he appreciated the extra effort and that he learned a lot and had a great time and it was worth every penny.  I told him that the next time he draws I would give him a full hunt for half price to get him a bull.  The point is he paid for the experience and even though he didn't get a bull, he had a great time.  So, I understand guided hunts aren't for everyone, but neither is DIY backpack hunting.  I'm actually going on my first guided hunt this year and really looking foward to it even though I'm a major DIY kinda guy.

[bow-n-head]

OK I know this is guided vs. unguided and I don't blame anyone who has the money to pay a guide to do so. Let them deal with the headache of where to hunt . But when FWP does their animal count they should discount the animals on private property where the hunting public doesn't have access. I am fed up with their whining about all the deer eating their hay and not allowing hunters on, other than the few willing to shell out 4-6k to shoot a buck :yike:and these few people arenot enough to do any animal control. Then a few of these landowners I know personally want to be issued kill permits in january to shoot deer and leave them lay. I can't believe I am the only one who sees this as wrong! These animals are supposed to belong to the public, but we have no access to them and the landowner gets to basically sell them to the highest bidder! When FWP does their game count in the middle of winter, I would like to see a state tax on every animal on their property. OH say 100 dollars a head . That should cover the extra wardens needed to watch the landowners all winter to make sure they aren't shooting them and leaving them lay. I know it's a little radical, but I am fed up

[captbly]

Whats a guided hunt for deer typically cost?

[huntnphool]

Depends on whitetail or Mule deer, size of the deer, which state if in the US, Mexico or Canada, time of year etc. etc. etc.

[JoshT]

I'd rather shoot a doe on a DIY public land hunt... than a 180" buck that someone else found for me.

I don't have anything against guides... except for the above mentioned locking down of land... or those that act like they own a particular part of the wilderness. I don't have anything against guys hunting with guides... except for the high fence bull schitt. That just ain't why I'm in the woods... I don't want anyone doing any part of the hunting for me, unless it's a buddy that I can repay by doing the same for him.

I'm sure you can learn a lot from a guide... but for 4k-6k I can take a month off work and spend that time learing a couple square miles of wilderness. Just becuase you run around with a guy whos job it is to find critters... doesn't mean you'll learn a whole lot. Learning is a state of mind... and that state of mind is a lot easier to aquire when it's you doing the work... rather than just tagging a long.

[Blacktail99]

I went on 2 guied hunts in the washington area and was not happy with either if i pay you to guide me to a deer i should be the one choosing the one i want dont you think and if i ask for a whitetail don't take me to a mulie and not show me one whitetail.  then the guy asked me to be a refrence for his guide service. then i went on a hunt on public land with my buddy's and had a better time than i did paying for a hunt.  SO I SAY DO IT YOUR SELF HUNTS ARE THE BEST WAY.

[Gutpile]

I have no problem with guides or guided hunts. I have a HUGE problem with high fence Bullchit. It makes me sick when some guy shoots a "record book" animal at a damn electric feeder from a blind. These deer are really nothing more than livestock. Then all of the sudden he is an "expert". That really sticks in my craw. IMO any wild 130" whity is a far more impressive trophy than a managed/protected/genetically engineered 200" animal. I think that all of these hunting shows have made me this way. I loath canned hunts.

Now that said, if a guy wants to do it, fine. But it shouldn't be ranked with a truly wild deer.

[Alan K]

I've never been on a guided hunt, and don't plan to until I have the cash to hunt the animals that are in places I can't legally hunt without a guide. 

I'd rather shoot a doe on a DIY public land hunt... than a 180" buck that someone else found for me.

Amen to that.  If people are fine with doing it though, more power to them.  It wouldn't be rewarding to me but if it is to them so be it. 

It does however irritate me a bit that the record books are flooded with private land and leased land animals.  I like to look at the monsters that people have taken doing it the same way I do.  100% open to public land.

[Alan K]

Oh also whenever I do go on a guided hunt for stone sheep, or the red stags, I hope the moron guides don't walk in front of me when we're moving in for the kill.  Get the fk out of the way so I can shoot!  If the thing bolts I don't want to have to worry about the guide getting behind me first! 

A guy I hunt with went on a meat hunt in Canada for moose a few years back, and they were putting a stalk on a decent little bull (great bull on a meat hunt) in some reprod.  The thing busted 'em and they had about 2 seconds to get a shot off. Unfortunately he couldn't because the guide was ahead of him, and they never saw the bull again for the rest of the hunt.

[lokidog]

Have to agree with Alan.  There should be an asterix in the record books for private land and/or guided "trophies". 

Did one guided hunt in WY.  I worked hard for my deer because my guide was a bit lame, and I wanted to work hard.  My mom wasn't having much luck finding a nice deer so near the end she was brought over to an alfalfa field and waited for them to come in to feed in the eve.  She picked out her buck like sorting through the packs of bacon at the store.  She enjoyed her hunt.  I enjoyed my hunt but would not have as much had I gotten my deer like she got hers.  I had done a DIY doe hunt in WY years ago and am as proud or more of that deer than the buck I got guided.

[fc2038]

interesting. To be honest I could care less about guided or unguided. I personally prefer unguided. I like to do all the foot work myself. I like gathering maps and talking to the biologist and wardens, I believe you learn more that way which in return makes you a better hunter. Not to say hunting with a guide you would not learn anything. To me my hunts are more fulfilling when I plan and scout it myself.