My 50 Cal Full Bore Project

[reelamin]

Ok, just to qualify this...I'M A FREAK!!!!   I over think, over do, over process, and pretty much make a mountain out of a mole hill.  Regardless I am on a quest to make a 300yd elk killer muzzle loader.  What are the requirements....?  Goal is MOA accuracy and 1000lb minimum FT LBS on target.  Maximum yardage determined by ft lb of energy.  I also want to qualify this is geared towards elk....because if you can kill an elk.....you can kill a deer at half that distance. 

I figured out real quick I needed more accuracy and better sights to kill a bull at 300yds.   NOT interested in a debate on if I should be trying to kill a bull at 300yds, but happy to discuss and work on how to kill one at 300yds!!   I found out instantly...my rear peep with factory front on a Knight Big Horn was not going to work.   The front was so huge I was limited to about a 200yd shot.   I am not interested in guessing where the bullet will land. 

I do a lot of research and testing to find out what my rifle will do.  My rifle is at best a 1.5"/100yd with a scope...about a 3" with the factory front and a Wilson FP peep rear.   Not even close to what I need.  These are full loads...not reduced...requires full load to meet the ft lb on target requirement.  Shooting 300gr minimum bullet weight.  My stock rifle is not accurate enough, but after bedding the action it tightens up.  (Happy to cover bedding an action...super easy...and anyone can do it.)

I test lots of different combinations of Sabot and bullets....bottom line she wont shoot under 1.5" at the velocity I want.   I now need under 1"/100yds at max velocity and full bore seems to offer that potential.  So does knurling bullets to stick to sabots for under sized bullets.  BUUUT...I want a brake on it...so full bore is he way to go. 

Please give me input both critical and positive.  Looking for any information available, but I would ask you to clarify if this what you have done or what you have heard.  Easy to tell someone how to fix something you read about on the internet......not so easy to spend hours and major bucks to find out yourself.   Not trying to be a *censored*.....just calling out the obvious of todays world.

Here we go!!!!

[reelamin]

Here is what I have so far.   Several 50cal bullets I will knurl to fit my bore.  Fury, Thor, and Hornady are the true full bore bullets.  The others are actually .500 bullet and require knurling to fit the bore.  My bore is a tight .501...probably a real .5005 its so tight.  Anyway...we will make it work....running some bullets I find out real quick some realities. 

Nothing..and I mean nothing will fit down the bore at .501.....must be .500 to start down.  I can drive a Thor .501 down with a quick jam on the starter because the bullet is .500 with only a tiny fraction of the skirt a .501.  Any true full bore .501 will not start unless the diameter at the base is .500 and increases to .501 or .502 quickly.  In reality......she is a .501 bore period but can fit some .502 down with lots of pressure. 

[whacker1]

what are your plans for barrel length, and sight picture?.  i.e. longer barrel gives you a longer platform between rear and front sight. 

https://www.lymanproducts.com/brands/lyman/sights/target-front-sights/series-17a-insert-set.html
are you going to move to a lyman globe front sight with insert?
or do you have other plans?

[Samloffler]

I see you have a scope in the picture. Will you be hunting with that or is it just for load development? That Lyman globe with the fine cross hairs is probably the best sight picture you can get with irons, but you'll have to have nice conditions to be able to see the damn thing.

You didn't mention powder, but you will have better control and repeatability with loose powder. I've been happy enough with pellets so I haven't tried, but black horn 209 is supposed to be about the best there is. I would weight it on a powder scale instead of by volume in a powder measure.

As for full bore bullets, I'm guessing you've seen that Thor has the sample pack so you can pick the exact size you need for your bore.

[Karl Blanchard]

Tagging for later

[ctwiggs1]

tag

[Reidus]

you need a muzzleloader with a custom. .45 cal barrel. High bc 300gr bullet at 2400fps and it'll shoot sub moa no problem with bh209.

[reelamin]

I spent some time determining my actual bore diameter.  I had some full bore FURY, Thor, and hand knurled with files a .500 Speer.  I used a NOE resizer on the knurled bullets.   I'm sure my barrel is barely .501 and probably even under.  If I knurled the entire side of the bullet to the base I was not going to get a .501 in the barrel.   I ended up using the side of one file and knurling the top half then I could get a .501 down.  I could even get a .502 with a lot of pressure, and that was because he raised area was small and pliable.  The .501 Thor would go but only with a good smack to force the skirt and the body was .500 so it would fit.  The Fury .501 would go but was fairly snug (got very tight after fouled barrel) and no way could I get a .502 Fury more then .25" down the barrel. 

I went to my nice bench area to shoot sight in the scope (Used only for load development).  Yes, I will be adding a Lyman Globe front sight, but for now only using a 12x scope.  I brought some different bullets to try and get started on the development.   It zeroed back where I needed it with two shots at 50yds and two shots at 100yds.   I did not account for how cold it was, and did not bring any heaters, gloves, or what I needed.   I was not planning on load testing, but I felt good enough to give one bullet a try.

I went with the .501 Fury 325gr using a .521x.060 fiber wad first.  I used 120gr of BH209 and a Winchester Primer.  1st and second shot were 7" apart and the 3rd was less than 2" away from the 1st.  WTH? all shots felt good at the shot...this is not a good start.   I only had six of the Fury left and was not going to try them back to back.  I just packed up and went home to get organized and ready to dive in fully.   Oh, and order more of the .501 Fury bullets. 

I forgot to mention the .501 Fury were super hard to seat with a fouled bore.  As in REALLY HARD to seat.  I wiped the bore between each shot with a windex patch twice.  It would require a starter ball on top of your ramrod or handle like my range rod to seat a bullet.  This may be a .500 bore after fouling....that might work out great. 

The bullet pics are my knurled Speer, Fury .501, and the target pic is just the backer with the holes in it.  I will answer the other questions later this evening. 

[reelamin]

My current sight is a 12x scope for load development.  For hunting I had the stock front and Williams FP rear peep.  The scope allows the precision aiming I need to know really how accurate it is.  This gun is just a stock Bighorn with 26" barrel, but I bedded the action and floated the barrel.  When done I have a Lyman Globe with some Shaver inserts and a low front ramp to mount it on. 

I have several different powders to try.  So far this gun is just as accurate with T73F as BH209.  I prefer the BH209 as I get slightly more velocity and it is super clean shooting.  Again, the only way I can get this to work is maximum velocity or my energy drops off too fast.  This gun shoots 1" with reduced powder and even a full load 265gr Lehigh, but I want more bullet weight.

I have tried the Thor, and have more to try with some changes.  it was less accurate than my Sabot rounds with just the bullet.  The Thor diameter is only a very small area just at the bottom of the skirt and the body is .500.  My plan is to try the Thor again with a base wad, base wad and body knurling. 

I may end up with a 45cal gun as that is the caliber with the most full bore shooting done.  50cal is useable in more states for hunting big game so I'm starting with that.  Plus, I already have a 50cal to mess with.

[Reidus]

There's a lot better options for .45 cal full bore dia.  with most of the muzzleloader bullets, the bc is so low that they lose velocity quick. With some of the higher bc 45 cal bullets available, you can almost double your energy at extended ranges just due to the bc of the bullet.

It is possible to use a muzzlebrake shooting sabots. They are a pia to install since it is like an extension of the bore. there's brakes designed specifically for this.

[reelamin]

Today I tried different bullets because the Fury .501 was so hard to seat with a fouled bore.   The .500 slide down easy and do not appear to be getting much if any grip on the rifling.  I had sized a lot of my different bullets after knurling them with a file.  All were sized to .501 and tried in the fouled bore, that had been wiped with windex patch twice and BH209 powder used.  NOPE not going to happen if the sized area is any more than just the skirt.   

The Thor, and Hornady FPB (resized to .501 as the skirt was .507) would slide down fine with reasonable pressure.  As soon as I tried even the same bullets with file knurling I could not get them down more than .5".  The Hornady FPB does not appear to have much of a jacket at all.  The file cut right through it to the lead core, and it appears to be a plated not jacketed bullet.

Any suggestions on the full bore?  Going to try shooting .500 with base wad and see what happens next. 

[Sabotloader]

I currently am using the Barnes ML Expanders knurled up to fit my bore.  These are sold as bullets for a 54 cal. with sabot. The bullet is .500x275




Problem is they would not be good for long range because of the open hollow point.

[reelamin]

I currently am using the Barnes ML Expanders knurled up to fit my bore.  These are sold as bullets for a 54 cal. with sabot. The bullet is .500x275

Problem is they would not be good for long range because of the open hollow point.

Sabotloader....I have some....I will try knurling with a pipe cutter.  The file created too much area at .501 and I could not get them in the barrel.  The reduced area might be the ticket.   Have no clue what I will do to size the other bullets with a couple bands if it works.   Sure not as sleek/higher BC as some, but if it will shoot at max load, it will get to the 300yd goal at least according to my ballistic program.  I emailed NOE and trying to see if I can get a sizing die between .500 and .501.   Will just keep doing what I can...I'm already way into it.  I'm trying to avoid an adjustable sizing die.

[Sabotloader]

I currently am using the Barnes ML Expanders knurled up to fit my bore.  These are sold as bullets for a 54 cal. with sabot. The bullet is .500x275

Problem is they would not be good for long range because of the open hollow point.

Sabotloader....I have some....I will try knurling with a pipe cutter.  The file created too much area at .501 and I could not get them in the barrel.  The reduced area might be the ticket.   Have no clue what I will do to size the other bullets with a couple bands if it works.   Sure not as sleek/higher BC as some, but if it will shoot at max load, it will get to the 300yd goal at least according to my ballistic program.  I emailed NOE and trying to see if I can get a sizing die between .500 and .501.   Will just keep doing what I can...I'm already way into it.  I'm trying to avoid an adjustable sizing die.

These bullets should slide your current bore very easily.  So using the cutter it will not take much.  You can see the index marks on mine.  When I put the bullet in and had the blade on the bullet I indexed the knob. the second index marks the spot that I do not want to go any deeper.

Barnes has a 50x325XPB but it takes more energy (velocity) to open it than does the MZ-Expander

It has a higher BC and will shoot longer ranges but doubt very much it would open up.

[floatinghat]

My summarized thoughts

1000ftlb is low on energy for a bull elk but that can be mitigated by good shot placement and bullet performance.

Lead conical, slow rainbow to the target otherwise you will be challenge to find the velocity to expand a bullet with the BC needed.

300 is a looong shot with open sights on game in the field.

For a front sight I would suggest a post or a lyman 17 with insert of your choice.

Perhaps a soft lead conical out of a sabot or paper patch if you can stablize it? That would allow you to push the lead harder?


Looking forward to seeing what you come up with to solve your challenge.



If you want muzzleloader does smokeless count? That opens a whole new conversation (without me talking).