WDFW Predator Lawsuit

[bearpaw]

I continue to withhold judgement until more details are known...but I don't get warm fuzzies if big ag is behind the lawsuit.  At best there is a narrow overlap where a byproduct of their efforts might be beneficial to sportsmen.  However, on a host of issues most farm bureau and ag industry folks are not sportsmen friendly.  I'm sure they would be happy to take sportsmen's hard earned money and use us as a pawn in their game though.

Although they would most certainly benefit, "Big AG" or the Cattleman's Association aren't involved.

This suit will be completely founded (and funded) by sportsmen.

Honest question piano, grassroots or hunting organization?

I've said all I can say. It is sportsmen and not AG.

 

[jackelope]

Even though certain antics might be humorous, I'm not sure what will actually help our cause. Once this suit gets underway certain enviro groups and/or media will likely use anything to make hunters look like hillbillies who know nothing.

From a general PR side regarding predator management - I think the notion of highlighting loss of Caribou and concerns about other ungulates is a much better approach than directly targeting predators.  The urban folks still love their cuddly wolves and bears...so make the issue about saving those sweet little fawns and calves with their pretty brown eyes.  Any of the garbage with crosshairs and kill all the wolves will only hurt the cause in this liberal state.  The message should be about balanced wildlife management...not annihilating any one species or killing them down to minimal levels. 

From the legal side, the enviro groups don't care about the sweet little fawns. They're not supporting a predator spiral because they love wildlife. They support it to undermine and eventually end hunting. It's probably not going to be possible to spin a different angle on a lawsuit aimed at changing the DFW's flawed predator management or lack thereof.

I'm talking about only the PR side, not the legal side.  As I've previously stated, I'm withholding judgement until substantially more detail is presented on the lawsuit - but with the limited information provided thus far - I see no path to success for a lawsuit at this time.  Hence a PR effort might be more fruitful and my point still stands...a successful PR campaign would follow what I outline above.  The PR campaign is not directed at the crazies on the enviro side...you'll never convince them of anything.  It's to convince that middle 80% voting bloc that we need more balanced wildlife management than is occurring.

This is a lawsuit, not an initiative. You don't need to convince the general public of anything. You need to convince 12 jurors and a judge after facts and testimony have been presented to them. I would imagine the purpose of the above stickers would be to raise money for the suit. Appeal to sportsmen.

I'm not talking about this individual theoretical lawsuit - I'm talking about balanced wildlife management in this state - the PR side is very critical.  It's very possible there really is no substantive merit to this supposed lawsuit...so you don't need to worry about a jury...it has little chance of ever getting there.  The PR stuff could much more likely influence policy and legislation - and that is a path to more successful predator management.

Frankly, I'm becoming more convinced that somebody has decided to try and capitalize on the anger and fears of folks against wolves and this lawsuit will be nothing but a sham way to make big $$ for some people or organizations.  The Enviro crazies have been doing this successfully for decades...many of their attorneys and senior execs don't care about wildlife...but they do know how to make $$ playing on the emotions of their uneducated followers.  This same model would work for those passionately against wolves...so I urge anyone to be very cautious before sending hard earned money to some group promising a lawsuit that sounds too good to be true.  The consistent calls for money and donations to support this effort combined with nobody providing a solid set of details or facts about this lawsuit should be a major red flag for everyone.  A fool and his money...     

I'm not for or against anything until I see all the details...that said, your comments surprise me here. Major red flags at this point because nobody has provided a solid set of details or facts already when the OP made it clear multiple times that details will be provided in the spring? Condemning it without any details or facts?

[idahohuntr]

Please forgive my Ignorance... Im not sure what organizations these are..  SFW/BGF

Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (SFW) and Big Game Forever (BGF).  I hate to mention them for fear of derailing this thread but Google them...there are a ton of controversial threads about those orgs. 

[idahohuntr]

Even though certain antics might be humorous, I'm not sure what will actually help our cause. Once this suit gets underway certain enviro groups and/or media will likely use anything to make hunters look like hillbillies who know nothing.

From a general PR side regarding predator management - I think the notion of highlighting loss of Caribou and concerns about other ungulates is a much better approach than directly targeting predators.  The urban folks still love their cuddly wolves and bears...so make the issue about saving those sweet little fawns and calves with their pretty brown eyes.  Any of the garbage with crosshairs and kill all the wolves will only hurt the cause in this liberal state.  The message should be about balanced wildlife management...not annihilating any one species or killing them down to minimal levels. 

From the legal side, the enviro groups don't care about the sweet little fawns. They're not supporting a predator spiral because they love wildlife. They support it to undermine and eventually end hunting. It's probably not going to be possible to spin a different angle on a lawsuit aimed at changing the DFW's flawed predator management or lack thereof.

I'm talking about only the PR side, not the legal side.  As I've previously stated, I'm withholding judgement until substantially more detail is presented on the lawsuit - but with the limited information provided thus far - I see no path to success for a lawsuit at this time.  Hence a PR effort might be more fruitful and my point still stands...a successful PR campaign would follow what I outline above.  The PR campaign is not directed at the crazies on the enviro side...you'll never convince them of anything.  It's to convince that middle 80% voting bloc that we need more balanced wildlife management than is occurring.

This is a lawsuit, not an initiative. You don't need to convince the general public of anything. You need to convince 12 jurors and a judge after facts and testimony have been presented to them. I would imagine the purpose of the above stickers would be to raise money for the suit. Appeal to sportsmen.

I'm not talking about this individual theoretical lawsuit - I'm talking about balanced wildlife management in this state - the PR side is very critical.  It's very possible there really is no substantive merit to this supposed lawsuit...so you don't need to worry about a jury...it has little chance of ever getting there.  The PR stuff could much more likely influence policy and legislation - and that is a path to more successful predator management.

Frankly, I'm becoming more convinced that somebody has decided to try and capitalize on the anger and fears of folks against wolves and this lawsuit will be nothing but a sham way to make big $$ for some people or organizations.  The Enviro crazies have been doing this successfully for decades...many of their attorneys and senior execs don't care about wildlife...but they do know how to make $$ playing on the emotions of their uneducated followers.  This same model would work for those passionately against wolves...so I urge anyone to be very cautious before sending hard earned money to some group promising a lawsuit that sounds too good to be true.  The consistent calls for money and donations to support this effort combined with nobody providing a solid set of details or facts about this lawsuit should be a major red flag for everyone.  A fool and his money...     

I'm not for or against anything until I see all the details...that said, your comments surprise me here. Major red flags at this point because nobody has provided a solid set of details or facts already when the OP made it clear multiple times that details will be provided in the spring? Condemning it without any details or facts?

I've not condemned anything.  That's just spin from others...I've stated clearly multiple times I'm withholding judgement.  I absolutely continue to urge caution when the pleas for money are coming well before any details...that is how many scams operate (start writing your checks, will fill you in on the details later  ).  If no details can be shared until spring, why post this to a social media site?  Not logical.  But again, if this is a solid lawsuit that benefits wildlife and sportsmen I will be a big supporter. 

[pianoman9701]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time you didn't know what you were talking about. 

Amen, he has no details but has condemned it! 

The details will all come out when it's time! Until then we hope hunters will simply get the word out to other hunters that this suit is coming. Once it's filed and everyone can read it and see who is involved, then you can decide if you want to support it in any way. If anyone wants to offer constructive ideas to help that is great.

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?  Please spread the word about our secret lawsuit that we can't tell you anything about... 

It's likely not the first time you've been confused by something so obvious. I'm sorry you struggle so. I know it must be difficult. Try and have a nice New Year, regardless.

[jasnt]

Even though certain antics might be humorous, I'm not sure what will actually help our cause. Once this suit gets underway certain enviro groups and/or media will likely use anything to make hunters look like hillbillies who know nothing.

From a general PR side regarding predator management - I think the notion of highlighting loss of Caribou and concerns about other ungulates is a much better approach than directly targeting predators.  The urban folks still love their cuddly wolves and bears...so make the issue about saving those sweet little fawns and calves with their pretty brown eyes.  Any of the garbage with crosshairs and kill all the wolves will only hurt the cause in this liberal state.  The message should be about balanced wildlife management...not annihilating any one species or killing them down to minimal levels. 

From the legal side, the enviro groups don't care about the sweet little fawns. They're not supporting a predator spiral because they love wildlife. They support it to undermine and eventually end hunting. It's probably not going to be possible to spin a different angle on a lawsuit aimed at changing the DFW's flawed predator management or lack thereof.

I'm talking about only the PR side, not the legal side.  As I've previously stated, I'm withholding judgement until substantially more detail is presented on the lawsuit - but with the limited information provided thus far - I see no path to success for a lawsuit at this time.  Hence a PR effort might be more fruitful and my point still stands...a successful PR campaign would follow what I outline above.  The PR campaign is not directed at the crazies on the enviro side...you'll never convince them of anything.  It's to convince that middle 80% voting bloc that we need more balanced wildlife management than is occurring.

This is a lawsuit, not an initiative. You don't need to convince the general public of anything. You need to convince 12 jurors and a judge after facts and testimony have been presented to them. I would imagine the purpose of the above stickers would be to raise money for the suit. Appeal to sportsmen.

I'm not talking about this individual theoretical lawsuit - I'm talking about balanced wildlife management in this state - the PR side is very critical.  It's very possible there really is no substantive merit to this supposed lawsuit...so you don't need to worry about a jury...it has little chance of ever getting there.  The PR stuff could much more likely influence policy and legislation - and that is a path to more successful predator management.

Frankly, I'm becoming more convinced that somebody has decided to try and capitalize on the anger and fears of folks against wolves and this lawsuit will be nothing but a sham way to make big $$ for some people or organizations.  The Enviro crazies have been doing this successfully for decades...many of their attorneys and senior execs don't care about wildlife...but they do know how to make $$ playing on the emotions of their uneducated followers.  This same model would work for those passionately against wolves...so I urge anyone to be very cautious before sending hard earned money to some group promising a lawsuit that sounds too good to be true.  The consistent calls for money and donations to support this effort combined with nobody providing a solid set of details or facts about this lawsuit should be a major red flag for everyone.  A fool and his money...     

I'm not for or against anything until I see all the details...that said, your comments surprise me here. Major red flags at this point because nobody has provided a solid set of details or facts already when the OP made it clear multiple times that details will be provided in the spring? Condemning it without any details or facts?

I've not condemned anything.  That's just spin from others...I've stated clearly multiple times I'm withholding judgement.  I absolutely continue to urge caution when the pleas for money are coming well before any details...that is how many scams operate (start writing your checks, will fill you in on the details later  ).  If no details can be shared until spring, why post this to a social media site?  Not logical.  But again, if this is a solid lawsuit that benefits wildlife and sportsmen I will be a big supporter. 

who has asked for $$???

[bearpaw]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time you didn't know what you were talking about. 

Amen, he has no details but has condemned it! 

The details will all come out when it's time! Until then we hope hunters will simply get the word out to other hunters that this suit is coming. Once it's filed and everyone can read it and see who is involved, then you can decide if you want to support it in any way. If anyone wants to offer constructive ideas to help that is great.

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?  Please spread the word about our secret lawsuit that we can't tell you anything about... 

I don't care what you may say to insult me, all that matters is that something positive is being worked on that will hopefully result in better predator management in Washington, that is what really matters!   

[Skyvalhunter]

 

[bearpaw]

Even though certain antics might be humorous, I'm not sure what will actually help our cause. Once this suit gets underway certain enviro groups and/or media will likely use anything to make hunters look like hillbillies who know nothing.

From a general PR side regarding predator management - I think the notion of highlighting loss of Caribou and concerns about other ungulates is a much better approach than directly targeting predators.  The urban folks still love their cuddly wolves and bears...so make the issue about saving those sweet little fawns and calves with their pretty brown eyes.  Any of the garbage with crosshairs and kill all the wolves will only hurt the cause in this liberal state.  The message should be about balanced wildlife management...not annihilating any one species or killing them down to minimal levels. 

From the legal side, the enviro groups don't care about the sweet little fawns. They're not supporting a predator spiral because they love wildlife. They support it to undermine and eventually end hunting. It's probably not going to be possible to spin a different angle on a lawsuit aimed at changing the DFW's flawed predator management or lack thereof.

I'm talking about only the PR side, not the legal side.  As I've previously stated, I'm withholding judgement until substantially more detail is presented on the lawsuit - but with the limited information provided thus far - I see no path to success for a lawsuit at this time.  Hence a PR effort might be more fruitful and my point still stands...a successful PR campaign would follow what I outline above.  The PR campaign is not directed at the crazies on the enviro side...you'll never convince them of anything.  It's to convince that middle 80% voting bloc that we need more balanced wildlife management than is occurring.

This is a lawsuit, not an initiative. You don't need to convince the general public of anything. You need to convince 12 jurors and a judge after facts and testimony have been presented to them. I would imagine the purpose of the above stickers would be to raise money for the suit. Appeal to sportsmen.

I'm not talking about this individual theoretical lawsuit - I'm talking about balanced wildlife management in this state - the PR side is very critical.  It's very possible there really is no substantive merit to this supposed lawsuit...so you don't need to worry about a jury...it has little chance of ever getting there.  The PR stuff could much more likely influence policy and legislation - and that is a path to more successful predator management.

Frankly, I'm becoming more convinced that somebody has decided to try and capitalize on the anger and fears of folks against wolves and this lawsuit will be nothing but a sham way to make big $$ for some people or organizations.  The Enviro crazies have been doing this successfully for decades...many of their attorneys and senior execs don't care about wildlife...but they do know how to make $$ playing on the emotions of their uneducated followers.  This same model would work for those passionately against wolves...so I urge anyone to be very cautious before sending hard earned money to some group promising a lawsuit that sounds too good to be true.  The consistent calls for money and donations to support this effort combined with nobody providing a solid set of details or facts about this lawsuit should be a major red flag for everyone.  A fool and his money...     

I'm not for or against anything until I see all the details...that said, your comments surprise me here. Major red flags at this point because nobody has provided a solid set of details or facts already when the OP made it clear multiple times that details will be provided in the spring? Condemning it without any details or facts?

I've not condemned anything.  That's just spin from others...I've stated clearly multiple times I'm withholding judgement.  I absolutely continue to urge caution when the pleas for money are coming well before any details...that is how many scams operate (start writing your checks, will fill you in on the details later  ).  If no details can be shared until spring, why post this to a social media site?  Not logical.  But again, if this is a solid lawsuit that benefits wildlife and sportsmen I will be a big supporter. 

who has asked for $$???

It's probably my fault for asking people to brainstorm funding ideas (or however I put it) that could be used once the suit is filed. Nobody has asked me for any money, I was simply trying to look ahead for after the suit is filed, my mistake.

[Special T]

Please forgive my Ignorance... Im not sure what organizations these are..  SFW/BGF

Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (SFW) and Big Game Forever (BGF).  I hate to mention them for fear of derailing this thread but Google them...there are a ton of controversial threads about those orgs.

Interesting... They both seem Utah based

[pianoman9701]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time you didn't know what you were talking about. 

Amen, he has no details but has condemned it! 

The details will all come out when it's time! Until then we hope hunters will simply get the word out to other hunters that this suit is coming. Once it's filed and everyone can read it and see who is involved, then you can decide if you want to support it in any way. If anyone wants to offer constructive ideas to help that is great.

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?  Please spread the word about our secret lawsuit that we can't tell you anything about... 

I don't care what you may say to insult me, all that matters is that something positive is being worked on that will hopefully result in better predator management in Washington, that is what really matters!   

What he's having a problem with is he's unfamiliar with the marketing technique which employs and builds anticipation. Many legal teams have used this technique, as you know Dale. The movie companies do it all the time. He may not understand. 

[bearpaw]

Once the suit is filed and all the info is public record I'm sure there will be many others who will want to help in any way they can. I had pretty much written off Washington as being totally lost, this is the last best chance we have to turn wildlife management around in WA, we must hope for success! 

[pianoman9701]

 

[jackelope]

Please forgive my Ignorance... Im not sure what organizations these are..  SFW/BGF

Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (SFW) and Big Game Forever (BGF).  I hate to mention them for fear of derailing this thread but Google them...there are a ton of controversial threads about those orgs.

Interesting... They both seem Utah based

I don't believe he's saying they have anything at all to do with this pending lawsuit.
(Reply #161)


[/quote]

@idahohuntr Is there an sportsmens organization that you know of that operates this way?

Hard to send any $ when we dont know who it is... Apparently Bearpaw Does.   Do you think BP would risk his Name and Reputation on his own site when he no doubt would suffer in his main business if he helped Fleece sportsmen in WA?

Perhaps the question should be What kinds of actions related to Predator issues could the lawsuit be about? Obviously it cant be some General They are screwing us and its obvious lawsuit.

Per the order of your questions:
1. I would put SFW/BGF in this camp of screwing sportsmen to make $$.  I do not know of any others that operate in such a shady way at this time.
2. Many of the wolf lovers are duped into sending money thinking they are doing good deeds.  Sportsmen could be just as susceptible.  I do not believe anyone, BP included, would intentionally support an effort to fleece sportsmen.
3. Yes, those are good questions.  I've stated all along I'm withholding judgement until all the details are known. If  this theoretical lawsuit is targeting some specific action (or lack of action) that is/was arbitrary and there is solid evidence to support a correction and such a correction is a good thing for wildlife management I would be a big supporter.  If it's some sham that has no merit and has negative repercussions to wildlife management - I will be a big critic.  And of course it could be somewhere in the middle...point being, until details are known its hard to blindly support and so I continue to urge caution. 

[idahohuntr]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time you didn't know what you were talking about. 

Amen, he has no details but has condemned it! 

The details will all come out when it's time! Until then we hope hunters will simply get the word out to other hunters that this suit is coming. Once it's filed and everyone can read it and see who is involved, then you can decide if you want to support it in any way. If anyone wants to offer constructive ideas to help that is great.

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?  Please spread the word about our secret lawsuit that we can't tell you anything about... 

I don't care what you may say to insult me, all that matters is that something positive is being worked on that will hopefully result in better predator management in Washington, that is what really matters!   

Nor do I care what you and others say to insult me - we are all interested in successful management of this states wildlife.