the Methow is even worse off than I thought

[Skyvalhunter]

You obviously don't know the reputation of the biologist in this area. Why do you think we are in this predicament in the first place. If you had any past experience with how it has been handled in the past you wouldn't put in the hands of the biologist. This biologist has way too large of an area to handle and cannot make judgment calls which are best for the herd.

[hunter399]

I'm not sure which state you live in but no hound hunting,no foothold trap or body gripping traps already are rules in this state.

Let managers manage ,is gonna become a slippery slope in years to come .when OTC tags are gone and hunting in this state becomes very limited.

Hunters that live in a gmu can see a lot more of what's happening to our wildlife than a game commission that never leaves the office.When people lie on there hunting reports about harvest,how many days hunting etc. It hurts the rules setting process.Biologists lie about game counts can hurt rule setting.There is a lot factors that go into rule setting .All I'm saying is that hunters live in that area should be listened too a lot more.It pretty obvious that some of the systems we have in place now are not working with less game every year and hunters that are spending there money in other states.Your suggestion of let managers manage Sitka is not working plain and simple,what looks good on paper doesn't always look good out in the woods.

I do leave my comments every year when rule changes come up.It really does no good .Regs are alway set with how many tags can we sell ,without conservation in mind.

That's what I'm getting at Hunter 399. Management shouldn't be decided on people's feelings. Neither voters or hunters should be deciding what season there should be or what legal hunting methods should be used.  Management should be based on what is best for the herds and the habitat and should be done with the best science available. Just because some Yuppie in Seattle thinks hounds shouldn't be allowed to hunt predators or just because some hunters think they don't get enough opportunity, is no reason to let either of them decide what hunting regulations should be.  Leave it to the professionals. (I'm talking the biologists)  They know a lot more than they ever get credit for.

You are right Sitka.
I just wish biologist,commission,etc. would start makeing hard decisions that need to be made concerning wildlife and the future of hunting.
Instead of selling tags being first priority.

[idahohuntr]

I'm not sure which state you live in but no hound hunting,no foothold trap or body gripping traps already are rules in this state.

Let managers manage ,is gonna become a slippery slope in years to come .when OTC tags are gone and hunting in this state becomes very limited.

Hunters that live in a gmu can see a lot more of what's happening to our wildlife than a game commission that never leaves the office.When people lie on there hunting reports about harvest,how many days hunting etc. It hurts the rules setting process.Biologists lie about game counts can hurt rule setting.There is a lot factors that go into rule setting .All I'm saying is that hunters live in that area should be listened too a lot more.It pretty obvious that some of the systems we have in place now are not working with less game every year and hunters that are spending there money in other states.Your suggestion of let managers manage Sitka is not working plain and simple,what looks good on paper doesn't always look good out in the woods.

I do leave my comments every year when rule changes come up.It really does no good .Regs are alway set with how many tags can we sell ,without conservation in mind.

That's what I'm getting at Hunter 399. Management shouldn't be decided on people's feelings. Neither voters or hunters should be deciding what season there should be or what legal hunting methods should be used.  Management should be based on what is best for the herds and the habitat and should be done with the best science available. Just because some Yuppie in Seattle thinks hounds shouldn't be allowed to hunt predators or just because some hunters think they don't get enough opportunity, is no reason to let either of them decide what hunting regulations should be.  Leave it to the professionals. (I'm talking the biologists)  They know a lot more than they ever get credit for.

You are right Sitka.
I just wish biologist,commission,etc. would start makeing hard decisions that need to be made concerning wildlife and the future of hunting.
Instead of selling tags being first priority.

I'm all for science based management - which means we are using facts and data to inform decisions.  However, seasons, methods, population goals, are not decided on science - the science informs how things like season length, timing, harvest methods etc. will effect populations.  But it is ultimately up to the owners of the wildlife (the public) - via their fish and wildlife commission - to make these decisions and at least some of those decisions are based on social and cultural values of the owners of the wildlife.  More simply - science does not tell us what is right or wrong - it just ensures professional staff can better achieve the public's desires.

[woodswalker]

You obviously don't know the reputation of the biologist in this area. Why do you think we are in this predicament in the first place. If you had any past experience with how it has been handled in the past you wouldn't put in the hands of the biologist. This biologist has way too large of an area to handle and cannot make judgment calls which are best for the herd.

That is a FACT
 

[Bonehuntn]

Pretty much comes down to if you don’t live in the area you prob shouldnt Hunt it for a handful of years to help things out! 🤷‍♂️ 😂

[wolfbait]

Did you ever wonder if this is not incompetence, but a deliberate coordinated action? 

Fact, the Department has gotten away from GAME management, Fact, there are a large number of greens and others whose interests do NOT coincide with those of hunters in WDFW.  I do not think its a coincidence that as the make up of WDFW has changed, the agenda has as well.  We are NOT told the truth, even have it denied when we have solid evidence...but are told we don't know what we are seeing/talking about.  And i sure don't like being lied to by Mr Fitkin to my face.  I know the difference between a coyote and a wolf.  Makes me question most everything that comes out of WDFW and flat pisses me off...  The fact that WDFW minimizes predator numbers (wolves in particular) and will not admit to them where anyone IN the woods has solid evidence that they are, further erodes my confidence in them.

In a wider sense, and coincidental with several other agendas, less game, fewer hunters, less hunting, less "Need" for firearms.  Also less access to the wild (human pollution) and fewer folks really conversant with wildlife.  More Corridor Areas.  Fewer rural residences, we see this along the Rockies and in other places where folks are getting forced off their lands.

 

WDFW knew exactly what wolves would do to the ungulate population in WA, like everyone else, they only had to look at the Yellowstone elk herd etc.. Then take away cougar and bear management tools, hounds and bear baiting, throw in hundreds of doe permits and expect the deer herd to keep up with demand?

I have watched the destruction of the deer herd for over ten years now, told about it here on H-W. Like many areas in WA, there are a few select coyote hunters that have their game down, and I know of a few here in the Methow that kill the heck out of coyotes every year, then there are those that shoot on sight any coyote they see, so coyotes can be controlled some what.

What's changed, wolves and cougars are seen and talk about it on a regular basis,, it's no big deal. It is the new norm.

I talk to a guy who has worked as a seasonal for the USFS in the Methow for 25+ years, he said next year he will be packing, he said last year he had several close calls with bears, and had never seen so many before.

Last week a friend and I drove up Beaver Cr and over the top down into Bear Cr, we put 60 miles on, driving back roads and the only deer we saw was in the orchard behind Hanks grocery store. We did see plenty of wolf tracks and a couple sets of cougar tracks and the occasional coyote track.

The cougars are snagging deer in the river bottoms and the outskirts of town, homes where the deer feel safe, many are noticing the drop in town deer as the winter wears on.

As for the Methow, anytime someone says it's the habitat they don't know what they are talking about, I can show you miles of bitter brush country where deer use to range, that now has no deer. Where once herds of 200 plus fed in alfalfa fields in the fall, there are now none.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure why the deer herd is on it's last legs, and figure out that without strict predator management this is the end..I highly doubt at this stage of the game the herds can be turned around.

To some, the term WDFW biologist has become a dirty word in the Methow and Okanogan, the rest are blind followers of WDF&Wolves.

A little WDFW wolf history:

In Washington, Feds Opt For Wolf Introduction Over Recovery

https://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/06/08/in-washington-feds-opt-for-wolf-introduction-over-recovery/

If you want to get a cougar in the Methow, PM me, quite sure I can direct you to success.

[jstone]

Will the bucks have lost there racks in mid February?

[zwickeyman]

All 3 bucks will most likely have dropped by then

Not too much of an exaggeration

[MADMAX]

 


thats sad

[bigmacc]

I got permission to post this story from a friend of mine, it fits into this topic like a glove. I talked with a friend of mine who's brother has been living in Florida for the last 22 years. He used to hunt the Methow as a young man back in the 60,s, 70,s 80,s, his last year hunting it was 1996. He grew up in eastern Washington and the Methow was like a 2nd home to him and his brother. They packed in on horseback into a lot of remote areas and killed a lot of big bucks from the north part of the valley down to the Gold Creek area. My friend said his brother and wife now in their late 70,s came up to Washington for the holidays this last year, he wanted to make a trip to the Methow to see his beloved Mule deer that he has missed for 22 years, it was the first time setting foot in the valley since 1996. Well, they seen 26 deer in a day and a half going into areas that the last time he was in (back in the 90,s), he seen hundreds. It was 1996 that he and some friends went into the Davis Lake and Pipestone Canyon area on horseback in December to take pictures and video of deer, he said they seen around 500 that day along with about 100 bucks. I will say it again, he made the same trip this year, same time frame, the only thing different was that they spent an extra half day and it was 22 years later, from 500 down to 26, needless to say he was shocked and devastated to see the state of this once mighty Mule deer herd, while they sat on their horses overlooking some of the primest winter range in the valley,  he asked my friend(his brother) what has happened in 22 years, they looked about 10 feet to their left and in the snow was 2 sets of cougar tracks, my friend pointed to the tracks and told his brother "there is a lot more of those up and down this valley, A WHOLE LOT more than there used to be"

[no.cen.wa]

Thanks wolfbait for those old articles, makes me sick but not surprised! Think I'll stop hunting mule deer and switch to predators next season, if you see a dead carcass, I know nothing about it

[splitshot]

Where r the deer going 2 winter. Too many people.no one will realize this till it is 2 late. The next hard will put a big hurt on wildlife. Mike w

[mountainman]

Growing up there and cut my teeth on mule deer in the Methow. Go up there still quite often. Breaks my heart to see what has happened to that herd. Once, the place to go out if the whole state, now just a sad remnant of what once was...

[boneaddict]

Yep

[Skyvalhunter]

It's very interesting when I asked the Biologist about how the cougar population affects the deer population and was told:
 It is not a cougar problem as studies show that deer populations impact the cougars and not the other way around. If there are not enough deer the cougars will leave or die off. He said it is a number of issues. Tribal hunting, disease(louse issues), salvage law, habitat.

I say B.S.