the Methow is even worse off than I thought

[buckfvr]

Ungulate hunting opportunity is certain to be reduced soon, but it wont benefit hunters, as it will only add to whats available to predation.  Just like when wdfw said they were getting rid of any elk hunts in N.E. wa. in order to grow herds.......what they meant was, in order to provide more meals to the wolves to stave off domestic predation, but we are several years past that point now.

[bigmacc]

Given all the talk of how bad mule deer herds are doing does it really make sense to allow unlimited otc tags?  I know I would like to see most of the state go draw only for mule deer.

Just my opinion here, first thing that I think should be done for the Methow herd is for the state to accept that there is a predator issue in the Methow and to aggressively confront that problem either through enhanced and extended predator seasons and "special" hound hunting permits that are set up as a draw system that would generate money also for the state, bottom line-reduce the amount of cougar and bears in this valley along with coyotes, we know nothing can be done at this time about the other 2(wolves and Grizzly),Grizzly are there and I would imagine they love their venison. Second would be to stop doe permits and late quality tags for 5 years, make up for lost revenue by offering special predator tags, seasons and drawings. Lets face it, it doesn't seem like the majority of decisions made by the WDFW are solely made with 100% interest and the well being of the mule deer herd in this valley, I,m sure that money and revenue plays some sort of role and as I,ve said many times there are a lot of other irons in the fire they need to tend to, so we as hunters(if some sort of system that addressed predators was put into play) would need to walk the talk and put in for these predator drawings and buy those enhanced season tags and do our part to not only thin the predators but help generate the money that won't come in for the doe tags/quality tags. If those ideas arnt tried I would be in favor of an every other year system(huntnphool had some great ideas on this) that would immediately cut hunting pressure in half in the Methow, let them double the price for a Methow tag when its your year to compensate for the loss in the amount of tag purchases along with the discontinuing of quality permits. Make the season a 2wk archery season in September and a 2 wk rifle season in October always ending on the 31st(no matter what day that falls on) this system immediately cuts pressure in half and will spread it over 2 weeks for the rifle season. As said I know a lot of whats going on is about money, if they could turn the Methow at least into a "real quality" area by implementing some of these ideas including addressing the predator issue, heck just speaking for myself I would pay $80 or so every other year for a Methow tag. They could do it in other areas of the state for mule deer also(the Chelan herds etc.). I still think although that just aggressively doing something about predators alone by the WDFW would be a HUGE step forward and we would see positive growth in the herd almost immediately, add in deleting doe tags and quality tags for a few years and that may be all it takes, possibly drawings etc. could be avoided, who knows, it hasn't been tried.

[Night goat]

Sorry state of affairs, this day and age we should have figured out exactly how to have great deer/elk management.  Having a Wdfw that is pro predator makes a huge negative impact.  With 14 points for deer, my buddies are passing on those normal big mule deer permits.  Sad deal

Frankly I see myself moving up to Alaska in the next 4 or 5 years

[bigmacc]

I just got back from a week and a half in the Methow, spending most of my time between Twisp and Mazama.  Wow.  It's a wasteland for mulies.  While I didn't spend time specifically looking for deer, I skied a lot and drove many roads through prime winter range.  They just aren't there.  The mule deer herd is a small fraction of what it was even five years ago. 

The whitetails seem to be doing OK, although I did find a number of predator kills.   It takes less than 48 hours to convert a carcass to a red blotch in the snow. 

I did see a couple of moose at the Loup.  That was cool.   

A week and a half and hardly seeing any mule deer.....IN THE METHOW VALLEY.....IN DECEMBER/JANUARY!..Olympia, we have a problem!  I remember walking from my friends porch to his barn and seeing hundreds, now you are lucky to see a couple every now and then but what you will see is an occasional cougar run across the hill in the back of his place, or find cougar kills scattered around, see an occasional bear lumbering along the river bank or crash through the thickets that dot his property and on those special nights either hear the yipping of coyotes coming from 3 or 4 different directions and or the howling of wolves, but every night you will here one or the other. I know I pull up a lot of memories of this valley, my family started hunting it in 1917, had family that lived there a while and lived in the surrounding area for years. My great grandparents were very good friends with many of the original familys that lived in the valley going back to the late 1800,s and early 1900.s, so yes I,ve herd many stories, seen many pictures and yes have experienced myself, the "hay days" of hunting in the Methow. My family has been privileged to call some of the old guard of the Game department friends, not just in this state but in Alaska also where my grandparents spent half their time. The issue we have here now is that everyone and I mean everyone who knows this valley sees the problem and it didn't start after the fire it started when predators began being coddled, we started noticing the decline 20-25 years ago, we were seeing less and less deer every year, spring scouting, summer scouting and winter, every year less and less and we were hearing the same things from folks who have lived there their whole lives, some of which had generations going back to the early 1900,s. The things that we were seeing were more cougar, more bear, more coyotes and then we seen the wolf. We were seeing more and more cached kills, we were seeing wounded deer, we were noticing how much more alert and skittish deer were becoming,  but like I said, the most alarming thing we were seeing was less and less deer and that trend has been going on for 20 or so years by our observations.  My dad and I seen our first moose back in the 60,s in this Valley, we've seen elk, we seen a Grizzly back in the late 70,s we seen a wolf in the early 90,s, we have put miles on in this valley into places most people have never been or will ever go and yes we've probably seen 10,s of thousands of deer in this valley. This is something that has been going on for awhile now and as said has been noticed by all that know this valley. Are they not getting out(WDFW), are they not getting out and putting on boot miles, theres half buried kills and "red blotches" in the snow all over that valley, pre 20 years ago you would hardly ever run into a predator kill, you would find winter kills that maybe birds and coyotes were scavenging but not half buried/half eaten carcasses with cat or bear sign all around, I can't believe how many fawn carcasses we've found over the last 5-7 years! Predators are a problem, not the only problem but IMHO it should be at the top of the list of "things to do" for the Methow Herd in 2019, "address the predator issue".....sorry for all the rants, its just so obvious

[R2Rcoulee]

I still have a cougar tag. Anyone know of a good place to set up & call or just drive around? I have hunted the Chewuch unit in the past , but It was in the higher elevation areas. I’m sure it’s snowed out by now & the deer are down at lower elevations. Let me know & I’ll burn up a weekend or two hunting dogs & cats.

[Skyvalhunter]

Best bet at this point to find a cougar is go where the deer are. Whatever area you go in make sure the quota for that area hasn't been filled.

[bigmacc]

Best bet at this point to find a cougar is go where the deer are. Whatever area you go in make sure the quota for that area hasn't been filled.

I agree with what Skyvalhunter is saying here, the problem is finding the deer, if you know 218 there is plenty of cats up Boulder and we seen sign of them up 8 mile also. I have a friend who has seen 4 different cats in the Davis Lake area (224), 2 of them traveling together, although the last time he seen them was about a month ago, with all the cats running around its obvious the quotas are way to low, I really don't get it, why these things are being so coddled and pampered, I try not to be a conspiracy type but these things are deer killers, why especially after all the most effective ways to control these things have been taken away is there any quota on them period! I,m no cougar expert but I will be hunting them a lot more aggressively next year, our whole group will be. We pointed a fella in the direction of one we seen this last year and couldn't get a shot at it, him and his buddy went in and killed it. Good guys and were experienced cat hunters, at least I felt somewhat responsible for a cougar being harvested, saved 50 deer! I have been studying and learning all I can about hunting these dang things, I will kill one next year! Like many have said the most effective ways of hunting them have been taken from us.

[Skyvalhunter]

A question I have yet to get answered is this. Where was the survey taken was it up by Winthrop where you have deer from the Pasayten, Twisp river, Mazama, and northern Chiliwist. Or was any surveys done in th lower valley from Carlton south where u have deer from Alta south an Chiliwist. I can guarantee you if it were the latter the deer population is really dismal.
  Then I have yet to see a total deer count. The ratio might be 15:100 but if there is only 150 deer surveyed that is a low total. I would really like to know the total counted.

[bigmacc]

A question I have yet to get answered is this. Where was the survey taken was it up by Winthrop where you have deer from the Pasayten, Twisp river, Mazama, and northern Chiliwist. Or was any surveys done in th lower valley from Carlton south where u have deer from Alta south an Chiliwist. I can guarantee you if it were the latter the deer population is really dismal.
  Then I have yet to see a total deer count. The ratio might be 15:100 but if there is only 150 deer surveyed that is a low total. I would really like to know the total counted.

Its dismal in the north also, Chewuch, Pearry, Gardner. I know folks who live in all 3 units, worst deer numbers they have ever seen. I keep hearing numbers in the 15,000-19,000 for a total herd count in the valley, thats from the Canadian border at the north down to the Columbia to the south. There are some including myself that find those numbers very high, even if its correct it means half of this herd has disappeared since the 1960,s. We are talking another 15,000-19,000 mule deer gone, just gone.

[davew]

I've got a trail cam hung in an apple tree pointing at a salt block in my back yard near Wolf Creek in the Gardner unit.  Five years ago, I'd get a couple hundred pictures a month during the summer and fall, with most of them being mule deer.  Now, it's down to a couple of dozen pictures a month, with almost all of them being whitetails.  During the rut, I'd always get a few pictures of big mulie bucks.  This year - none. 

[MADMAX]

My buddies got a place up in that area
Same issues
And lots of bears too until it snows
We went 1 for 12 on legal mule deer last year

[boneaddict]

A question I have yet to get answered is this. Where was the survey taken was it up by Winthrop where you have deer from the Pasayten, Twisp river, Mazama, and northern Chiliwist. Or was any surveys done in th lower valley from Carlton south where u have deer from Alta south an Chiliwist. I can guarantee you if it were the latter the deer population is really dismal.
  Then I have yet to see a total deer count. The ratio might be 15:100 but if there is only 150 deer surveyed that is a low total. I would really like to know the total counted.

Its dismal in the north also, Chewuch, Pearry, Gardner. I know folks who live in all 3 units, worst deer numbers they have ever seen. I keep hearing numbers in the 15,000-19,000 for a total herd count in the valley, thats from the Canadian border at the north down to the Columbia to the south. There are some including myself that find those numbers very high, even if its correct it means half of this herd has disappeared since the 1960,s. We are talking another 15,000-19,000 mule deer gone, just gone.

Just circle the helicopter again and recount the same ones.  "Better take her around again Jim"

[Ridgeratt]

A question I have yet to get answered is this. Where was the survey taken was it up by Winthrop where you have deer from the Pasayten, Twisp river, Mazama, and northern Chiliwist. Or was any surveys done in th lower valley from Carlton south where u have deer from Alta south an Chiliwist. I can guarantee you if it were the latter the deer population is really dismal.
  Then I have yet to see a total deer count. The ratio might be 15:100 but if there is only 150 deer surveyed that is a low total. I would really like to know the total counted.

Its dismal in the north also, Chewuch, Pearry, Gardner. I know folks who live in all 3 units, worst deer numbers they have ever seen. I keep hearing numbers in the 15,000-19,000 for a total herd count in the valley, thats from the Canadian border at the north down to the Columbia to the south. There are some including myself that find those numbers very high, even if its correct it means half of this herd has disappeared since the 1960,s. We are talking another 15,000-19,000 mule deer gone, just gone.

Just circle the helicopter again and recount the same ones.  "Better take her around again Jim"

Does it count if they count out the other window as well?  We had 20 out that side and now we have another 20.

[MtnMuley]

I would love to volunteer to go on the flight as a witness to actual numbers recorded, but I highly doubt anybody with DFW would want me in the air with him

[woodswalker]

Did you ever wonder if this is not incompetence, but a deliberate coordinated action? 

Fact, the Department has gotten away from GAME management, Fact, there are a large number of greens and others whose interests do NOT coincide with those of hunters in WDFW.  I do not think its a coincidence that as the make up of WDFW has changed, the agenda has as well.  We are NOT told the truth, even have it denied when we have solid evidence...but are told we don't know what we are seeing/talking about.  And i sure don't like being lied to by Mr Fitkin to my face.  I know the difference between a coyote and a wolf.  Makes me question most everything that comes out of WDFW and flat pisses me off...  The fact that WDFW minimizes predator numbers (wolves in particular) and will not admit to them where anyone IN the woods has solid evidence that they are, further erodes my confidence in them.

In a wider sense, and coincidental with several other agendas, less game, fewer hunters, less hunting, less "Need" for firearms.  Also less access to the wild (human pollution) and fewer folks really conversant with wildlife.  More Corridor Areas.  Fewer rural residences, we see this along the Rockies and in other places where folks are getting forced off their lands.