Isle Royale Wolf Transfer - Emergency Action

[Tradhunter]

I see, thanks. I don't know that area.

[idaho guy]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

[SuperX]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

More robust in terms of diversity, replacing a population that had problems with in-breeding.  Genetically they are all the same species, body size is an adaptation to cold, that's why southern whitetails are small even though the racks on mature bucks are larger down south.  It's like height being passed down.

Idaho didn't ever have it's own wolf species

[Tradhunter]

Thats kind of the point I was getting at. Besides letting nature take its course we always think the right thing to do is interfere which can be problem #1. But as far as i know, importing these wolves to Yellowstone, they spread through Montana wiping out the last remaining native wolf they had there. Why couldn't they capture them and breed them out to rehabilitate them instead? At least to have a true native wolf within these few states in the Northwest. Im guessing because they aren't (robust) because the numbers have fallen off. if thats the case well...thats kind of nature isn't it?

[SuperX]

Thats kind of the point I was getting at. Besides letting nature take its course we always think the right thing to do is interfere which can be problem #1. But as far as i know, importing these wolves to Yellowstone, they spread through Montana wiping out the last remaining native wolf they had there. Why couldn't they capture them and breed them out to rehabilitate them instead? At least to have a true native wolf within these few states in the Northwest. Im guessing because they aren't (robust) because the numbers have fallen off. if thats the case well...thats kind of nature isn't it?

true native wolf... what makes one gray wolf native and another not? 

[JimmyHoffa]

I guess this polar vortex has frozen so much ice on the lakes that it is likely the wolves will all be transferring themselves soon.

[Tradhunter]

I am still learning about all this wolf stuff but I was under the impression that in the northwestern states we had red wolves, a small timber wolf that doesn't live in giant packs and murder everything in sight. I do believe that Canadian wolves have been coming in and out of the US for ever but have never taken up residency and continued to move down as they are now with the assistance we are giving them.

[SuperX]

I am still learning about all this wolf stuff but I was under the impression that in the northwestern states we had red wolves, a small timber wolf that doesn't live in giant packs and murder everything in sight. I do believe that Canadian wolves have been coming in and out of the US for ever but have never taken up residency and continued to move down as they are now with the assistance we are giving them.

Red Wolves are limited to the south eastern US, lately they have been determined by genetics to be 75% coyote and 25% gray wolf, not a different wolf species at all.  that's the science of it... the politics differ.  All the wolves in North America are gray wolves or gray wolf hybrids genetically.

[idaho guy]

I am still learning about all this wolf stuff but I was under the impression that in the northwestern states we had red wolves, a small timber wolf that doesn't live in giant packs and murder everything in sight. I do believe that Canadian wolves have been coming in and out of the US for ever but have never taken up residency and continued to move down as they are now with the assistance we are giving them.

Red Wolves are limited to the south eastern US, lately they have been determined by genetics to be 75% coyote and 25% gray wolf, not a different wolf species at all.  that's the science of it... the politics differ.  All the wolves in North America are gray wolves or gray wolf hybrids genetically.

wolves are wolves and deer are deer. You made my point. Idaho, Montana etc had wolves that were wolves but their Canadian cousins that they dropped in our lap are way bigger, more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Biggest killer of wolves is wolves so goodbye smaller native wolf thanks to the genetic freaks they transported down. We had the northern rocky mountain wolf and they transported a MUCH larger and more damaging wolf from up north. Deer up north are larger right so are the dang wolves. Or should I say more "robust"   

[idaho guy]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

More robust in terms of diversity, replacing a population that had problems with in-breeding.  Genetically they are all the same species, body size is an adaptation to cold, that's why southern whitetails are small even though the racks on mature bucks are larger down south.  It's like height being passed down.

Idaho didn't ever have it's own wolf species

We had Canis lupis Irremotus the candians transplanted are canis lupus occidentails. Different subspecies. We had a small population of wolves in Idaho before reintroduction that were smaller. Size matters and whether they got huge by geography or temperature doesn't matter. They will kill whatever native wolf population is here and do WAY more damage to deer and elk.  SIZE matters in the wild         

[SuperX]

I am still learning about all this wolf stuff but I was under the impression that in the northwestern states we had red wolves, a small timber wolf that doesn't live in giant packs and murder everything in sight. I do believe that Canadian wolves have been coming in and out of the US for ever but have never taken up residency and continued to move down as they are now with the assistance we are giving them.

Red Wolves are limited to the south eastern US, lately they have been determined by genetics to be 75% coyote and 25% gray wolf, not a different wolf species at all.  that's the science of it... the politics differ.  All the wolves in North America are gray wolves or gray wolf hybrids genetically.

wolves are wolves and deer are deer. You made my point. Idaho, Montana etc had wolves that were wolves but their Canadian cousins that they dropped in our lap are way bigger, more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Biggest killer of wolves is wolves so goodbye smaller native wolf thanks to the genetic freaks they transported down. We had the northern rocky mountain wolf and they transported a MUCH larger and more damaging wolf from up north. Deer up north are larger right so are the dang wolves. Or should I say more "robust"   

Wolves and Dogs are cousins, wolves from Canada are just wolves even if they are born in Canada and move to Montana.

Northern Rocky Mountain wolves were extirpated in Montana by the 1930's by people, not other wolves.  This is a good read on the history of wolves in MT. 
http://fwp.mt.gov/fishAndWildlife/management/wolf/history.html

[bearpaw]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

More robust in terms of diversity, replacing a population that had problems with in-breeding.  Genetically they are all the same species, body size is an adaptation to cold, that's why southern whitetails are small even though the racks on mature bucks are larger down south.  It's like height being passed down.

Idaho didn't ever have it's own wolf species

We had Canis lupis Irremotus the candians transplanted are canis lupus occidentails. Different subspecies. We had a small population of wolves in Idaho before reintroduction that were smaller. Size matters and whether they got huge by geography or temperature doesn't matter. They will kill whatever native wolf population is here and do WAY more damage to deer and elk.  SIZE matters in the wild         

   With the transplanting of occidentalis (known for being a very large wolf) it has virtually guaranteed the extinction through breeding of the smaller sized native subspecies!

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

C. l. irremotus -- A medium to large-sized subspecies with pale fur.[58]   The northern Rocky Mountains
C. l. occidentalis -- A very large, usually light-colored subspecies.[68]   Alaska, the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the northwestern United States

[bearpaw]

How Conveneint!
Wolf Advocates want to reclassify the 23 North American subspecies into 5 subspecies, anyone who has followed this wolf fiasco can see that these specific 5 classifications will benefit their goal of legitimizing transplants of larger species on top of smaller subspecies and will benefit protecting wolves in specific regions that they want to protected from being delisted.

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

North American wolf subspecies distribution according to Goldman (1944). These subspecies are included in MSW3 2005.
For North America, in 1944 the zoologist Edward Goldman recognized as many as 23 subspecies based on morphology.[44] In 1959, E. Raymond Hall proposed that there had been 24 subspecies of lupus in North America.[45] In 1970, L. David Mech proposed that there was "probably far too many sub specific designations...in use" as most did not exhibit enough points of differentiation to be classified as a separate subspecies.[46] The 24 subspecies were accepted by many authorities in 1981 and these were based on morphological or geographical differences, or a unique history.[47] In 1995, the American mammologist Robert M. Nowak analyzed data on the skull morphology of wolf specimens from around the world. For North America, he proposed that there were only five subspecies of gray wolf. These include a large-toothed Arctic wolf named C. l. arctos, a large wolf from Alaska and western Canada named C. l. occidentalis, a small wolf from southeastern Canada named C. l. lycaon, a small wolf from the southwestern U.S. named C. l. baileyi and a moderate-sized wolf that was originally found from Texas to Hudson Bay and from Oregon to Newfoundland named C. l. nubilus.[48][49] This proposal was not reflected in the taxonomic classification of Canis lupus subspecies in Mammal Species of the World (third edition, 2005).[9]

[SuperX]

I don’t know that area either but I don’t agree that the wolves from Canada are genetically the same as lower 48 wolves even if it seems like the only difference is an imaginary line between the two countries. They already stated they are importing Canadian wolves because they are more “robust “ than what they have or had. I take that to mean bigger, faster, stronger more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Why would they say they have better genes if they are identical cousins? The people running the show said they are genetically superior and that’s why they are importing them. Look at a whitetail deer in Idaho and compared to a whitetail in Canada both whitetail s but the Canadian body size is way larger. The wolves we have now which we’re imported from Canada also are way larger than what was here already. By doing this they did eliminate any hope of bringing back Idaho’s true native wolf seems the same in this area

More robust in terms of diversity, replacing a population that had problems with in-breeding.  Genetically they are all the same species, body size is an adaptation to cold, that's why southern whitetails are small even though the racks on mature bucks are larger down south.  It's like height being passed down.

Idaho didn't ever have it's own wolf species

We had Canis lupis Irremotus the candians transplanted are canis lupus occidentails. Different subspecies. We had a small population of wolves in Idaho before reintroduction that were smaller. Size matters and whether they got huge by geography or temperature doesn't matter. They will kill whatever native wolf population is here and do WAY more damage to deer and elk.  SIZE matters in the wild         

   With the transplanting of occidentalis (known for being a very large wolf) it has virtually guaranteed the extinction through breeding of the smaller sized native subspecies!

Wolf Subspecies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies_of_Canis_lupus

C. l. irremotus -- A medium to large-sized subspecies with pale fur.[58]   The northern Rocky Mountains
C. l. occidentalis -- A very large, usually light-colored subspecies.[68]   Alaska, the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the northwestern United States

BTW, the subspecies irremotus has been removed as outdated and they consider them all to be just grey wolves genetically. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't love wolves or want them 'reintroduced' any more than they already have been.  My hope is to see wolves managed like any other game species with seasons and limits.

[idaho guy]

I am still learning about all this wolf stuff but I was under the impression that in the northwestern states we had red wolves, a small timber wolf that doesn't live in giant packs and murder everything in sight. I do believe that Canadian wolves have been coming in and out of the US for ever but have never taken up residency and continued to move down as they are now with the assistance we are giving them.

Red Wolves are limited to the south eastern US, lately they have been determined by genetics to be 75% coyote and 25% gray wolf, not a different wolf species at all.  that's the science of it... the politics differ.  All the wolves in North America are gray wolves or gray wolf hybrids genetically.

wolves are wolves and deer are deer. You made my point. Idaho, Montana etc had wolves that were wolves but their Canadian cousins that they dropped in our lap are way bigger, more able to kill and less likely to be killed. Biggest killer of wolves is wolves so goodbye smaller native wolf thanks to the genetic freaks they transported down. We had the northern rocky mountain wolf and they transported a MUCH larger and more damaging wolf from up north. Deer up north are larger right so are the dang wolves. Or should I say more "robust"   

Wolves and Dogs are cousins, wolves from Canada are just wolves even if they are born in Canada and move to Montana.

Northern Rocky Mountain wolves were extirpated in Montana by the 1930's by people, not other wolves.  This is a good read on the history of wolves in MT. 
http://fwp.mt.gov/fishAndWildlife/management/wolf/history.html

propaganda there was a small population of wolves documented in Idaho for sure(documented fact) before reintroduction and  I believe Montana. They were smaller and native. Because of their smaller size they actually did feed on smaller animals not just elk and deer. They felt they were not self sustaining which is why they can say they were extirpated in montana. I will guarantee they are not self sustaining now. Wolves and dogs are cousins yes but whats that mean? look up the different subspecies of wolf you will get it then.