Montana's big game combo

[bornhunter]

Applied for first time in Montana today. Dang thats a bunch of money but cant wait to see and hunt Montana. Dont have a clue yet where I will go but we'll see. Good luck to everyone else who applys.

[elkrack]

Good luck in MT!   been there once and it was amazing

[Stein]

Plenty of places to go if you draw, good luck.

[Skyvalhunter]

Hopefully the odds to draw are with you. I probably wont draw this year only 6 elk and 5 deer points

[bear]

Hopefully the odds to draw are with you. I probably wont draw this year only 6 elk and 5 deer points

Must be putting in for more than just combo then?

[vandeman17]

we put in for deer/elk combo yesterday too. Its a hit to the pocketbook but the hunting there is worth it

[bornhunter]

we put in for deer/elk combo yesterday too. Its a hit to the pocketbook but the hunting there is worth it

Good luck to you!

[Tbob]

Good luck man! I put in last year and didn’t draw. Back in this year with one point.. fingers crossed!!

[Skyvalhunter]

Hopefully the odds to draw are with you. I probably wont draw this year only 6 elk and 5 deer points

Must be putting in for more than just combo then?

Nope combo

[bear]

Hopefully the odds to draw are with you. I probably wont draw this year only 6 elk and 5 deer points

Must be putting in for more than just combo then?

Nope combo

Interesting. Can’t remember ever not drawing when I put in for combo.  Usually just do the deer combo.

[Skyvalhunter]

There's the option where if you don't draw the special permits you apply for they send most of your money back.

[bear]

Ya, I know.  That’s why I asked if it was just the combo. Makes sense

[nwhunter]

Last year several people I know or hunt with did not draw the combo. I would assume it will be the same or worse this year.. The worse hunting gets in Washington the worse the draw odds get in Montana.

[Stein]

51% of the people with 0 points drew the big game combo last year.  It's a pretty safe bet that will drop to below 50% this year.

[Hunter Dug]

gohunt is showing big game combo at 54% draw odds for general tags, Deer only is showing 60% draw odds for general tags.  If im not mistaken you have to draw a general to even put in for a limited tag.

[dvolmer]

When I didn't draw my deer/elk combo last years I called Helena headquarters to find out about the alternant list.  She (licensing agent) told me that they had 17,000 deer/elk licenses that they give out in the draw.  She said that they had 3500 more applicants then licenses.  So if my math is correct, they had 20,500 applicants for 17,000 licenses.  This is deer/elk combo only and NOT draw odds for deer only or elk only.  On top of this she shared some VERY VERY valuable information with me in regards to the $50 preference point.  I had in the past never bought a preference point because every year up until then they had more licenses than applications taken in so everyone that put in got drawn and they would sell the surplus licenses over the counter until they were gone.  Last year was the first year they had more applicants then licenses.

Here is the valuable information, this is how she explained it to me, for example, if 10,000 people that applied bought the preference point then all 10,000 were guaranteed a license.  the other (20,500-10,000=) 10,500 people would be put in a separate draw for the 7,000 licenses left over.  She said that being that I didn't buy the preference point, I was one of the 3500 that didn't get lucky in the left over draw.  If I would have bought a preference point last year she told me I would have been guaranteed a license.  I was lucky enough to get one in the alternant drawing later in the year for those who turned their license back in.

This was shocking to me in that I figured the system was sort of like Wyoming where the preference point you bought this year helped out the following year if you didn't get drawn.  Not so, the preference point helps you get the license the year that you buy it.  This was how it was explained to me.  There is a big difference in Montana between a preference point and a bonus point.

Now if all 20,500 people had bought the preference point, then it would have been a draw with everyone included but it is not that way.

I hope I have explained this in a way you can understand.  Once again, this is just what the licensing lady explained to me last year when I didn't draw.

I would like to know if anyone on this forum bought a preference point for the deer/elk combo license last year and didn't get drawn???  I'm not interested in the deer only because they had way way more applicants then the 4000 plus licenses they give out and I don't know the number of applicants that did or didn't buy a preference point.  The deer only license could have well had people get denied that did buy the preference point.

[Stein]

You are correct, there are two points systems in Montana, preference for the general tag and bonus for the special permits.  The general tag is a true preference system, those with the most points get the tags and then whatever is left goes into a drawing.  So, anyone with 1 point was guaranteed the tag last year and the rest were raffled to those with 0 points.

With the special permits, the bonus system is almost identical to WA, you square the points, get that many names in the hat and then run a draw.  You could draw with zero points or 20 points.

[Rainier10]

I'm in.

[Pathfinder101]

2011 was the last time I hunted Montana.  I put in a couple of years to get drawn for the Deer license, and that was normal back then.  Then MT jacked up their prices (I retired from the Army and had less time off in the fall with my new job, so I stopped putting in for out of state hunts) and a LOT less people were putting in.  Most people got drawn every year for a while.  Now, it looks like things have leveled back off (I think MT dropped their prices a little when the licenses were under-subscribed for a few years).  Looks like about an every-other-year proposition again.

Great hunting though.  Went twice, scored both times 

[dvolmer]

My first year hunting in Montana was in 2009.  Every year I put in for the deer/elk combo and got a license until last year.  Before 2018 (from 2009-2017) I got a license and everyone that applied for the deer/elk combo got a license.  They even would sell the surplus licenses on a first come first serve basis after the draw was over.  I was told that due to President Trumps booming economy (and that is what the licensing agent told me and not to get political here) the average blue collar worker had more money in their pocket to spend and they had a massive increase in applicants.  They are expecting the same turn out this year also.

I would expect a increase in cost on Montana licenses in the near future.  They will raise the cost to get as close as they can to applicants willing to pay=to number of licenses offered.  They owe it to their state to get the best bang for the buck that they can.  Simple business model.  It gives their wildlife dept. tons of money and recourses to manage their game and keeps the residents costs at hardly anything.  If you were a resident of Montana you wouldn't want it any other way.

[oldschool]

when is the draw

[vandeman17]

when is the draw

week of april 22nd

[Ryans71]

Buddy & I submitted our group licenses this morning.....and we each bought the preference point.  Hoping we'll have good news next month.

[bornhunter]

Buddy & I submitted our group licenses this morning.....and we each bought the preference point.  Hoping we'll have good news next month.

Good luck!

[3nails]

 My son and I are in. $2300 

[Stein]

I put in for 380 with 5 points, so don't bother applying for that one.   

[Britt-dog]

Waited till the last minute, but I am in. Applied for a 900 elk permit also. Committing to the expense should guarantee I draw something good here at home.

[Tbob]

Okay a little confused now on the points. So last year, I didnt “buy” any points and didn’t get drawn for my deer combo.. so this year I did buy the point for the deer combo with my application. So do I get a point for not drawing last year? Wondering if I’m in with two points for this year or just the one that I purchased with this years application? Thanks!

[MtnMuley]

My son and I are in. $2300 

Can you imagine 20 years ago that you'd be saying that and that's only to get you into a drawing, which might not even result in a tag?

[Stein]

Okay a little confused now on the points. So last year, I didnt “buy” any points and didn’t get drawn for my deer combo.. so this year I did buy the point for the deer combo with my application. So do I get a point for not drawing last year? Wondering if I’m in with two points for this year or just the one that I purchased with this years application? Thanks!

If you didn't buy the points last year you didn't get them.  Unlike WA, just applying doesn't get you a point, you have to pay the extra fee.  If you don't pay the point fee, you will have zero points forever even if you apply every year and never draw.

I believe the point you buy this year doesn't get added until after the draw (for use next year), but someone may correct me.  My guess is you are in this year with zero points.

[Timberstalker]

The point you buy for the general deer/elk/combo are applied to the drawing the year you buy them.

I’m not sure how it works for permits.

[Stein]

The point you buy for the general deer/elk/combo are applied to the drawing the year you buy them.

I’m not sure how it works for permits.

I just looked it up and you are correct, they apply it before the drawing.  I didn't realize it isn't a true preference drawing, they apply 75% of the tags to the preference pool and 25% random, but only to those with no preference points.

Interesting system, it will get wonky eventually.

[3nails]

My son and I are in. $2300 

Can you imagine 20 years ago that you'd be saying that and that's only to get you into a drawing, which might not even result in a tag?

First year I went the combo was deer, elk, bear and cost $320.

[Stein]

I remember deer tags at Kmart, they had a big pad and would rip off and sell you one for $7 if I remember correctly.

I didn’t realize how good residents had it until I moved over here.


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[bornhunter]

I remember deer tags at Kmart, they had a big pad and would rip off and sell you one for $7 if I remember correctly.

I didn’t realize how good residents had it until I moved over here.


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Just one of the many reasons I am on my way. Just trying to decide where in the big state I want to live.

[Timberstalker]

I remember deer tags at Kmart, they had a big pad and would rip off and sell you one for $7 if I remember correctly.

I didn’t realize how good residents had it until I moved over here.


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Good gravy!  About what year was that?

[Stein]

80’s.  I didn’t hunt but my buddy and his dad would stack them in the trunk of their T-bird.


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[Timberstalker]

Wow 

[180-GRAIN]

Well I didn't put in this year since I drew elk in Arizona. Figured I would do my part to help all your odds  . Just going to purchase points when they are available. Good luck to all that applied.

[Tbob]

Thank you for the clarification!

Okay a little confused now on the points. So last year, I didnt “buy” any points and didn’t get drawn for my deer combo.. so this year I did buy the point for the deer combo with my application. So do I get a point for not drawing last year? Wondering if I’m in with two points for this year or just the one that I purchased with this years application? Thanks!

If you didn't buy the points last year you didn't get them.  Unlike WA, just applying doesn't get you a point, you have to pay the extra fee.  If you don't pay the point fee, you will have zero points forever even if you apply every year and never draw.

I believe the point you buy this year doesn't get added until after the draw (for use next year), but someone may correct me.  My guess is you are in this year with zero points.

[wooltie]

My group wasn't drawn last year for the general deer combo.  We purchased a preference point this year.

So if I read this correctly, the licensing office claimed that the tags first go to applicants who have preference points, in order of largest to smallest, then the leftover tags go the applicants who have zero preference points, and those tags are awarded via a random drawing?

Geesh, here I thought buying the preference point increased your # of names in the hat so to speak.  But sounds like buying the point all but guarantees a tag?

[grundy53]

My group wasn't drawn last year for the general deer combo.  We purchased a preference point this year.

So if I read this correctly, the licensing office claimed that the tags first go to applicants who have preference points, in order of largest to smallest, then the leftover tags go the applicants who have zero preference points, and those tags are awarded via a random drawing?

Geesh, here I thought buying the preference point increased your # of names in the hat so to speak.  But sounds like buying the point all but guarantees a tag?

75% of the tags go to preference point holders 25% go to random draw for those with 0 points.

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[Bill W]

My son and I are in. $2300 

Can you imagine 20 years ago that you'd be saying that and that's only to get you into a drawing, which might not even result in a tag?

First year I went the combo was deer, elk, bear and cost $320.

I think the first time I went I paid $100 or $150 for the deer.

[Stein]

Thank you for the clarification!

Okay a little confused now on the points. So last year, I didnt “buy” any points and didn’t get drawn for my deer combo.. so this year I did buy the point for the deer combo with my application. So do I get a point for not drawing last year? Wondering if I’m in with two points for this year or just the one that I purchased with this years application? Thanks!

If you didn't buy the points last year you didn't get them.  Unlike WA, just applying doesn't get you a point, you have to pay the extra fee.  If you don't pay the point fee, you will have zero points forever even if you apply every year and never draw.

I believe the point you buy this year doesn't get added until after the draw (for use next year), but someone may correct me.  My guess is you are in this year with zero points.

I re-clarified my clarification (aka I was wrong).  You are in with 1 point.  Last year the draw odds for 1 point were 100% and roughly 50% for 0 points.  This year, they should be slightly worse than that, but you should be at or near 100% with 1 point.

It seems odd to me the way they add the point before the draw, but that's the game.

[tikkahunter]

They way I understand is preference point holders are ahead in line of non preference point holder.  If there 15k preference point holders for the big game combo all 15k will get it.  Then the remain 2k in combos will be randomly drawn from the non preference point holders.

[Stein]

They way I understand is preference point holders are ahead in line of non preference point holder.  If there 15k preference point holders for the big game combo all 15k will get it.  Then the remain 2k in combos will be randomly drawn from the non preference point holders.

Not quite.  75% of the tags go to the preference pool and 25% are kept in the random pool.   There are 17,000 big game combos, so 12,750 will go to the most preference point holders and 4,250 will go to the random pool (plus any leftovers from the 12,750 preference pool).

In your example, they would draw names in the preference pool and 2,250 people with 1 point wouldn't draw a tag.

Here is where I'm not sure.  The state's website says the random draw is for people with zero points.  So, do the 2,250 people with 1 point not go into the random draw then?  That's the way it is worded, but my guess would be that they drop into the random pool with the 0 point holders and have a second chance at getting a tag in the random draw.  Again, that's not the way the website says it happens but I do think they aren't going to penalize the people who buy a point by not being able to get in the random draw.

[wooltie]

I just called montana F&G.  The person I spoke with said that having a preference point "substantially increases your draw odds", and that "people with preference points are awarded tags first", citing that everyone with a preference point drew a tag last year.  She said the draw was still a random drawing, but in the same breath said that "if there are 15,000 tags, and 10,000 applicants with preference points, then all of the 10,000 applicants receive a tag and the remaining tags go to non-preference point applicants via the drawing."

I can understand them claiming that the draw is a random drawing, while the system is programmed to award tags to preference point holders first (until the tags or preference point applicants run out, whichever is first, and the remaining tags are assigned randomly.)

She also said Montana's bonus points system is like WA's, where bonus points increase the # of times your name is in the hat.

Glad I bought that point this year 

[Stein]

This is directly from their website:  http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/hunting/nr_1511.html

Distribution of Licenses

Seventy-five percent of the nonresident combination licenses will be issued to individuals with preference points and 25 percent will be issued to those applicants who do not have preference points.

She is correct for 10,000 applicants with preference points, but if more people with points apply then 75% of the available tags, not all people with preference points will get tags and 25% of the tags will go to people with no points in the random draw.  This hasn't happened yet, so she may not be completely familiar with the eventuality.

Buying a preference point certainly increases your odds (100% last year) vs no points (about 50% last year), but they do give 25% of the tags to people without max preference points, no matter how many people with 1 point apply.  This will happen (<100% odds with max preference points) in the near future as the number of applicants grows and people realize you can currently hunt in MT every year if you just buy a point.

[grundy53]

I just called montana F&G.  The person I spoke with said that having a preference point "substantially increases your draw odds", and that "people with preference points are awarded tags first", citing that everyone with a preference point drew a tag last year.  She said the draw was still a random drawing, but in the same breath said that "if there are 15,000 tags, and 10,000 applicants with preference points, then all of the 10,000 applicants receive a tag and the remaining tags go to non-preference point applicants via the drawing."

I can understand them claiming that the draw is a random drawing, while the system is programmed to award tags to preference point holders first (until the tags or preference point applicants run out, whichever is first, and the remaining tags are assigned randomly.)

She also said Montana's bonus points system is like WA's, where bonus points increase the # of times your name is in the hat.

Glad I bought that point this year 

Only the draw units use bonus points. The general tag uses preference points. Yes last year everyone with preference points drew a general tag but that was because the total number of applicants was less than 75% of the quota.

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