Am I shooting the correct arrow?

[dreadi]

Last year I bought a Hype Dtx from Lucky Shot. It’s my first and only bow. Ted set me up with 30” Gold Tip 340gr arrows, 125gr field points and my bow is set to a 28” draw which is about 68lbs.

Since it’s five months until elk season it was time to start shooting again but, this year I wanted to know my speed. I chronographed my speed at 244fps average.

My groups were all high left and about 1.5” at 20yds. I took breaks, did other tasks, and shot some more. Same results. Again today, same results. OK, time to move the sights I guess. I have witness marks and made a gross movement of the sight. Then they were landing where I want them. Great right? I still think I’m doing something incorrectly but, at least I’m doing it consistently...I guess. This left me curious.

I went to Gold Tip’s website and looked at their chart. Based on the aforementioned data I should be using 300gr according to their chart.

Am I missing out on something besides a few more FPS?

[Crunchy]

IBO on that bow is 305.  So you are in the norm speed range I would guess.  The spine on your arrows are what I would shoot.  If you went to a 300 spine it would only slow that arrow more.  If you are grouping good just keep shooting.

[OltHunter]

Short answer yes, you should have the correct spine.  1.5" groups at 20 yards is good. 

Spine will show up in left and right group spreads and more so past 40 yards.  If you want to play around with spine, adjust your bow's weight up and down 3 lbs and see what happens to your groups.  It's good to do that anyway to find the sweet spot. 
Another spine check is to shoot with 125 grain point, then 100 grain points and see what happens.

Cutting your arrows shorter will increase your spine as well.  I think yours are a bit long in my opinion.

My arrows are cut 30.75" and I have a 32" draw length using a Hamskea Trinity.  At 28" draw length you should be under 28" or right there, assuming you are using a drop away rest that is set behind the riser.

Your arrow should be cut to the middle part of your riser.  I understand if you are worried about overdrawing and your arrow coming off your rest and into your hand, so leave it if you want.

Shorter arrows will pickup some speed, increase FOC, and will increase stiffness a great deal.  Not to mention, longer arrows are harder to steer and are more affected by the wind.

[dreadi]

1.5" is good at 20yds? I was thinking it's a bit wide but, I'm no expert obviously.

I hadn't considered adjusting the draw weight. Ted eventually set it up to max after observing me and a few trial shots. I've just been shooting it that way every since.

Can you elaborate a bit on "spine check"?  When I used the Gold Tip chart, it didn't matter what grain field point I choose, it still said 300.

I am using a drop away rest. Ted's reason for cutting them that length, if I remember it exactly, was to give a bit of clearance from my fingers when the arrow is knocked and at draw.

I'm picking up what you're putting down...it sounds like shorter arrows compared to longer arrows is somewhat like changing bullet weights.

IBO on that bow is 305.  So you are in the norm speed range I would guess.  The spine on your arrows are what I would shoot.  If you went to a 300 spine it would only slow that arrow more.  If you are grouping good just keep shooting.

So 300 spine is not a lighter arrow? I had it in my mind it would be lighter.

I'm with you...last year I kept a life size target setup and will do so again this year. My groups were good enough (to me) most of the time.  I wasn't concerned about speed and spines until I started asking questions.  For me it's always, the more I know, the more I want to know why.

[huntnfmly]

300 vs 340 spine the numbers refer to the stiffness  (The deflection during their testing)
As you were saying the chart shows the same spine for different point weights is good it won't change unless you up or decrease your draw weight or arrow length.
The cut length you have is fine as long as the spine is correct lots of people don't like the broadhead so close to their finger.
As for testing the spine as you asked if you go by that chart you'll see a range of draw weight so you could up or decrease draw weight that might change spine needed and you could also change broadhead weights along with draw weight changes also

[OltHunter]

1.5" is good at 20yds? I was thinking it's a bit wide but, I'm no expert obviously.

I believe a Vegas 10 Ring is around 1.5" to 2".  That's good in my book at 20 yards.  Obviously everything has room for improvement, but I wouldn't beat yourself up over it.  That that is just my opinion for a general hunter.

Can you elaborate a bit on "spine check"?

I was just meaning different ways to check and see if you are spined correctly.  And those spine charts are just for reference, they are not an exact thing.  You got to factor in weights of all your stuff on the arrow, inserts/fletching/points, etc.  I'm not sure having too stiff a spine affects accuracy as too weak.

So shoot your groups.  Weak spines will affect your horizontal grouping.  Any easy check is to adjust your draw weight down by 3 pounds or more.  If your groups tighten horizontally, that means your spine was a little weak.  Obviously that will drop your groups down a bit, but you don't have to adjust your sights, just keep aiming at the same spot on the target with all your testing.  You are looking for the tightest possible group.

Another check, dropping your point weight and see what it does to the horizontal group.  If it tightens your group, then you were a little weak.

Another check, but not as easy, get your arrows cut by 1/4" and see what that does to your groups.  Cut it another 1/4" and see what that does.  That is more of a micro-spine tune type of thing.

Hope that makes more sense. 

Ways to weaken your spine - increasing draw weight, adding point weight, longer shafts.
Ways to strengthen spine - decrease draw weight, decrease point weight, cut shafts shorter, add an arrow wrap.

Try shooting some at 40 and see how the groups are doing.  Spine issues will probably start to show up more longer out.  It will show up close range with bareshafts vs fletched.

Also group your field points and broadheads to see how your overall tune is. Just some micro-tuning on your rest could shrink your groups too.

Just some things to think about, but don't overthink or you can drive yourself crazy.  I actually looked at the chart, and 300 is the range recommended at 30".  If you are terribly inconsistent at 40 to 50 yards, then get yourself some 300 and go from there or chop off 2 to 3 inches from the arrow!  If you have a full capture rest, I would really recommend you start looking at 29" arrow length at a maximum, or something at puts the end of your shaft at least 1 inch in front of your rest and around the middle of your riser. 

[dreadi]

Sounds like a trip the archery range is in my future!   I can get up to 30yds distance at home but, for sure I'll be checking something at 40 and beyond.   Thank you for the detailed explanation.

[dreadi]

Another member and I exchanged messages.  He suggested that I measure the distance from the riser wall to the center of the shaft and that it should be about 13/16 which if I'm correct is .813

My measurement is .718 and I took note of the bow string is well off center from the center of the riser.  It appears that I need to move the riser over.

[Crunchy]

Center shot is different on EVERY bow, so I would not be overly concerned with that measurement.  Every bow tunes differently so I would not adjust anything with that rest unless you are paper tuning or walk back tuning. 

[jstone]

If I am not slapping arrows together at 20 yards something is wrong.

[Crunchy]

If I am not slapping arrows together at 20 yards something is wrong.

No, just need more practice.  Could be a lot of reasons why, but like everything else if the bow is shooting good there is only one person to blame.  Repeatable is what you are looking for.  Cam timing off, arrow contacting the arrow rest, there are a lot of possibilities for poor shooting.  That is why starting off with paper tuning is so important.  Takes the blame off the bow and puts it on the shoulders of the shooter.

[dreadi]

After a bunch of measure twice, watch this/that YouTube video again, re-read this thread and PM, and referencing Mission’s FAQ, I’m finally getting dialed in after moving the rest and moving my sight.

This is all at 20yd. Top group is the first group. Bottom group is after moving the sight.



I’ll work on the walk back tuning later on.

[blackveltbowhunter]

 Looks good

I agree with crunchy that I would also be shooting that arrow as well. However I would cut it down. I might also lighten up the point weight to 100, but that would be just to play and see if it makes any difference.

How much did you shoot the bow last year? and what kind of wear and tear on your strings and cables? Depending on use, exposure and storage it could have stretched slightly. Just something to consider.

IME unless something is drastically out of whack, like fletching contact, defective arrows, or release aid malfunctions, Archery tends to be pretty repeatable even if out of tune, tightening groups is the shooters job.

[Jellymon]

When it comes to group sizes, just remember that 75% of shooters claim they shoot groups only 5% of shooters are capable of consistently shooting. Go do some 3d shoots, not only is it great practice, but it will show you how true my above statement is and make you feel much better about your own shooting.

[dreadi]

How much did I shoot last year?
Hmmm...I would say that for April-September I shot 3-5 times a week once or twice a day. I mostly work from home so I can just walk outside and shoot when it’s convenient for me. 20 minutes or so at a time.

Most of deer season I was hunting, no shooting. Most of December was hunting as well during late archery. The bow didn’t see a lot of  adverse/wet weather and it’s stored inside the home.

It’s probably time to wax the string since I never have.

Oh yeah forgot to try some 100s. Thanks for that reminder.

Last year I spent the majority of my time shooting at life size paper deer targets in front that target. I keep it behind the paper with the vitals centered on it. Then I’m focused on vitals and not tricking my self mentally with trying to maintain 1” groups all the time and the frustration that can come along with that. I would by a 3D target but. I’ve got plenty of paper targets still and will use those up before I buy a life size 3D target.

[WapitiTalk1]

After a bunch of measure twice, watch this/that YouTube video again, re-read this thread and PM, and referencing Mission’s FAQ, I’m finally getting dialed in after moving the rest and moving my sight.

This is all at 20yd. Top group is the first group. Bottom group is after moving the sight.



I’ll work on the walk back tuning later on.

There ya go mister    Here’s a really good pack o tuning VIDs (over on that stinky WT forum) that I think, is a good roadmap to bow setup/tuning.

http://www.wapititalk.com/Hunting/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8307

[buckfvr]

Center shot is different on EVERY bow, so I would not be overly concerned with that measurement.  Every bow tunes differently so I would not adjust anything with that rest unless you are paper tuning or walk back tuning.

You're right, but at the same time one should ALWAYS start out on spec.........

[dreadi]

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

I went to Lucky Shot this weekend and Ted looked over my work and didn’t see any reason to move the rest. He actually complimented the adjustment, which I appreciated. He worked with me on a few shots to make sure I was dialed in for 20yds and I only needed a slight vertical adjustment.

Today I shot in the backyard and got this group right off the bat at 20yds.



Feeling good about that I then decided it was time to kick it up a notch and get my heart rate up. 10 minutes of playing basketball, jump shots, dribbling, free throws, rebounds, and jog over, pull my arrows, jog to the shooting line and shoot four at 20yds.




Repeat the exercise but, then grab the gear and jog over to 30yds.




While not perfect, it still looks decent to to me.

[dilleytech]

I would recommend stripping the vanes off a few arrows and look up bareshaft tuning. Shoot one fletched arrow at 20 yards and then two un fletched arrows at the same spot that will tell you how well your bow is tuned or how bad your grip is.

[Crunchy]

I would recommend stripping the vanes off a few arrows and look up bareshaft tuning. Shoot one fletched arrow at 20 yards and then two un fletched arrows at the same spot that will tell you how well your bow is tuned or how bad your grip is.

Bareshaft tuning, walk back tuning, french tuning etc.  If you are grouping arrows at 40 yards call it good.  It is almost like starting over each time.

[dilleytech]

I would recommend stripping the vanes off a few arrows and look up bareshaft tuning. Shoot one fletched arrow at 20 yards and then two un fletched arrows at the same spot that will tell you how well your bow is tuned or how bad your grip is.

Bareshaft tuning, walk back tuning, french tuning etc.  If you are grouping arrows at 40 yards call it good.  It is almost like starting over each time.

Bareshaft tuning removes the need for walk back or French tuneing. You can have great groups at 40 yards of your a good shot but have crappy arrow flight. You might spin on a broad head in the fall and wonder why it’s hitting 1 ft off at 40 now.

[Crunchy]

Center shot is different on EVERY bow, so I would not be overly concerned with that measurement.  Every bow tunes differently so I would not adjust anything with that rest unless you are paper tuning or walk back tuning.

You're right, but at the same time one should ALWAYS start out on spec.........

There is no spec for center shot. If you look your bow up on the web you will see specs for axle to axle and brace height.  I think that is it. 

[northwesthunter84]

Not true my spec manual for Elite Impulse 31 has a spec center shot.

"When setting the center shot on 2016 Elite bows, measure from the inside of
the riser from the berger hole to the center of the arrow. This measurement
should be 3/4” - 13/16”."

[lamrith]

Looking good buddy!  Keep it up!

Reminding me I need to have my bow out and get cracking!

[dreadi]

So I’ve beat myself up quite bit over sloppy groups for the past couple months and it’s paying off. I just need to get those flyers under control.

20yds



50yds



60yds