Huge reduction of special permits

[bobcat]

It seems to me that if bull elk numbers in the Yakima herd are THAT low, there should be no general season this year for spikes. 

[kselkhunter]

It seems to me that if bull elk numbers in the Yakima herd are THAT low, there should be no general season this year for spikes. 

Would be good to take a year off on the spikes, and see what impact it has the following year. 

[Karl Blanchard]

It seems to me that if bull elk numbers in the Yakima herd are THAT low, there should be no general season this year for spikes. 

common sense isnt very common sir

[Karl Blanchard]

I still dont think bull numbers are down.  Like I've been saying, if all they did was fly the L.T., mudlake, cougar canyon,  pine,and the feed lots, then they missed a huge amount of bulls.  They never pushed down. Winter came too late and didnt last long enough to deplete them to the point of coming down.

[Karl Blanchard]

At the end of the day the regs are set. You can apply or sit out. Endless options for hunting out there and it's a free and fair market.  The choice is up to the individual.

[kselkhunter]

I can personally attest that spotting elk in the timber from a moving airplane is extremely difficult.   I would agree if the elk were still holding up high, it would be hard to do a count from the air.

[Karl Blanchard]

I can personally attest that spotting elk in the timber from a moving airplane is extremely difficult.   I would agree if the elk were still holding up high, it would be hard to do a count from the air.

agreed.  Also I'm doubting those are areas they even fly because it's hard to spot as well as being untraditional winter range.  Heck I saw a group of 31 bulls in the spot I shoot long.  That IS NOT winter range.

[jeffitz]

Glad i drew MT combo - 8 Goose Prairie Bull rifle permits is a jaw dropper- not even gonna apply for it this year

[Stein]

I would think it isn't harder to spot bulls by air this year as it was last year, the year before, the year before and the year before.  There is a clear trend and one year of this or that doesn't change the trend.

Yes, I'm not putting in for any WA big game tags this year for myself or any of our family.  That is lost revenue for me, but I would bet the same amount in cash that the number of permits sold this year are greater than last year.  My one family doesn't make a measurable difference.

It is fact that when tags are cut substantially, more people still apply than the year before.  I hold that as long as this is the case then we will see no change over the policy and actions we see today.

WDFW has no fear of the hunters.  Just ask any MT FWP guy what would happen over there if they whacked the tags issued to residents by 50% or more in one year.  They have direct and tangible accountability to hunters and WDFW does not, largely because we encourage them to continue by sending in more and more tag money every year.

[dreamingbig]

Cutting tags doesn't result in lost revenue directly.  You pay your $13 and if you draw they mail you the tag, they get no extra money if the double the number of tags issued (talking quality deer/elk here).  It would only result in lost revenue if people stop applying, which doesn't seem to be the case at least through last year.  Thus, their revenue is tied ONLY to how many people apply, not how many draw. 

In fact, the number of people applying has increased while the tags have decreased.  Thus, they make more money while issuing less tags.  Hence, little to no pressure to do anything other than hope next year is better.

For Peaches last year, here is what happened compared to 2017

Tags were reduced from 104 to 58.
Applications increased from 1282 to 1692

That's just one unit, but I bet if you pull statewide numbers, applications do not track with numbers of permits available.  I bet they increase by an almost predictable amount every year.

I believe this is one major cause of the problem, there is no tie between their performance on managing the herd and the money they receive.  You can take it a step further and argue the increases in permit applications shows more and more people think it is working.

So, there is zero financial incentive to do anything as the revenue won't move one way or another.  On top of that, it's easy to delete a few e-mails from us while it is much harder to ignore lawsuits and calls from Olympia.

Add that all up and my theory is that nothing will change until we stop sending checks in.  I don't buy the argument their hands are tied.  Yes, there are treaties, disease, development, winters and stuff like that - just like they exist in other states that do a much better job.  Wyoming and Montana have tribes and wolves, yet they have a huge amount of elk and their tags haven't dropped up to 93% in the last several years.  In fact, they have more wolves, more grizzlies, far worse winter temperatures and they make it work.

For Montana, here are the tag numbers for my application (380):

2014 - 94
2015 - 98
2016 - 100
2017 - 110
2018 - 110
2019 - 135

While ours went down 93%, theirs went up 43%!

The difference is that hunters have a much larger voice in MT and they aren't under constant pressure from Helena to spend resources on pet projects or ignore science (at least to the same level and direction, pet projects always exist).  We see them suing, fighting lawsuits, and in general, doing what their mandate requires.

If we all send our money in faithfully every year, expect what is going on now and the trends to continue.  The plan is to do the same thing and expect different results.

Didnt you yourself say you were gonna dip out of WA because of the permit cutting and mismanagement? Is that not lost revenue?


MT is a different beast all together.  Larger state with far fewer residents so it supports more game.  Also NR license sales makes up something like 90%+ of their revenue.


To Alchases comment on predators I'll argue again that in my THOUSANDS of miles of boot travel in yakima county I see no more predators and or sign as I did 15 years ago so if there is more bear and cat around they must have gotten smarter and also only kill bulls now because cows are already back up to almost herd objective.

I will disagree some.  The amount of bear sign and sightings in western Washington has increased dramatically.

My only experience in eastern Washington with any regularity is WOW wilderness (15 yrs hunting) and the bear sign and sightings has increased.  Cougars are ghosts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dreamingbig]

It seems to me that if bull elk numbers in the Yakima herd are THAT low, there should be no general season this year for spikes. 

But then they would have nothing to encourage folks to use their hunting license for.  They aren’t dumb... let them search for unicorns. 🦄


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dreamingbig]

Classic game theory problem here... only way to catch their attention is for a mass boycott but the problem is we can’t all agree to do it.  People will cheat and apply anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[greenhead_killer]

I’ve talked to game wardens in the past and know not all the elk come down regardless of how bad the winters are. They know certain alpine bowls that bulls stay year round in. I don’t know how much effort they put into actually checking real time numbers, but knowing that bit of info, I don’t think they ever get accurate numbers. I think there are more politics involved with that process than anyone will ever admit

[Karl Blanchard]

I’ve talked to game wardens in the past and know not all the elk come down regardless of how bad the winters are. They know certain alpine bowls that bulls stay year round in. I don’t know how much effort they put into actually checking real time numbers, but knowing that bit of info, I don’t think they ever get accurate numbers. I think there are more politics involved with that process than anyone will ever admit

right.  Pretty impossible to get em all but on an average year you'll get a percentage of animals that push onto the winter range.  This was not a normal winter.  I'm sure someone can speak more accurately to the formula used when counting practices.  @Doublelung

[sagerat]

The permit cuts probably came in as a request from the tribe and WDFW obliged. “Sure we can cut the numbers, any thing else?” “How about some keys to the gates so it’s easier to kill elk?”