What is the SD/ES window you strive to meet, with your hand loads?

[Hilltop123]

I'm shooting a 6.5 Creedmore, my loads consist of 39.0 gr. of H4350, 147 ELD-M, CCI Br-2 primers, Hornady brass weight sorted, shoulder bumped back .002. This rifle likes this load, at least at 100 yard. I can get my SD into the the single digits and my ES into the mid 20's. I'm not sure if this is as good as it gets, or can I tighten it up? What ES/SD window do you try to achieve? What did you have to do, to get there?

[yorketransport]

It depends on what I'm trying to accomplish but I like them around 10 fps. The 22-250 that I shot in local short range BR matches years ago would shoot an honest sub .25 MOA AGG (from a factory Savage LRPV) with a lot of 5 shot groups in the .15" range. The SD on that load was 27 fps! It was tuned specifically for 100 yards though so it didn't matter.

This load is from my 27 Boondoogle shooting the 170gr Berger EOL out of a 25" barrel. The groups at 280 yards were terrible with 3 MOA of vertical!


I just stopped worrying about it and just shoot for groups now. If I get a load that will hold .5 MOA at 200 yards I'll go straight to shooting at 800+ and see how it does. I willing to accept that I can't always shoot well enough to blame a 10 SD for a missed shot at long range. Sometimes I just plain miss.

[Hilltop123]

It depends on what I'm trying to accomplish but I like them around 10 fps. The 22-250 that I shot in local short range BR matches years ago would shoot an honest sub .25 MOA AGG (from a factory Savage LRPV) with a lot of 5 shot groups in the .15" range. The SD on that load was 27 fps! It was tuned specifically for 100 yards though so it didn't matter.

This load is from my 27 Boondoogle shooting the 170gr Berger EOL out of a 25" barrel. The groups at 280 yards were terrible with 3 MOA of vertical!


I just stopped worrying about it and just shoot for groups now. If I get a load that will hold .5 MOA at 200 yards I'll go straight to shooting at 800+ and see how it does. I willing to accept that I can't always shoot well enough to blame a 10 SD for a missed shot at long range. Sometimes I just plain miss.

Wow, those are some numbers!  And some insight on a direction I was leaning towards, just shoot for groups. Thanks

[CAMPMEAT]

CreedMOOR..........

[Hilltop123]

CreedMOOR..........

I'll keep that in mind...

[hogslayer]

Goes to show that looking only for SD won’t mean your going to get good groups.  I usually end up around 15 with a load that shoots good at 300.  I strive for 1” at 300 as I know “shoots good” is a loose term.  I would try some different primers, and your prep with inside of necks.  Caliber up Nylon brush works good.  Or dry neck lube in the necks followed by brush.

[Crunchy]

Goes to show that looking only for SD won’t mean your going to get good groups.  I usually end up around 15 with a load that shoots good at 300.  I strive for 1” at 300 as I know “shoots good” is a loose term.  I would try some different primers, and your prep with inside of necks.  Caliber up Nylon brush works good.  Or dry neck lube in the necks followed by brush.

You mean brushing the neck well before you dump powder and seat bullet?

[Hilltop123]

Goes to show that looking only for SD won’t mean your going to get good groups.  I usually end up around 15 with a load that shoots good at 300.  I strive for 1” at 300 as I know “shoots good” is a loose term.  I would try some different primers, and your prep with inside of necks.  Caliber up Nylon brush works good.  Or dry neck lube in the necks followed by brush.

Funny, you mention the neck brush. I have been using a .30 brush before seating, you sure can tell the difference in resistance while seating the bullet.

[hogslayer]

Yes, I usually use a nylon brush on the necks before I dump powder in and seat a bullet.  I hardly ever clean the brass, but when I do I use a dry tumbler.  Virgin cases I definitely lube the inside of the necks as well as freshly annealed.  If you feel like your in a good consistent load but ES is still high, try a different brand of primers that are similar for the cartridge.  I have not found a load that prefers Fed 215’s and H1000 in the last 6 rifles I have loaded for.  I cut ES down by switching to cci 250’s.  It’s all I run now.

[BULLBLASTER]

I typically don’t chrono a load until I am finished with it and have already run it out to range. Sometimes I chrono a quick ladder test to find max load but then not again until I’m satisfied it shoots well to the distance I want it to.

This is one I recently did. Sub half moa at 100 consistently

[Stein]

Best I have so far on the 30-06 is 4.2 SD, 9 ES.  I'm no expert, but it appears that there is a group that goes with the math that says if bullets weigh the same and leave at the same speed, they have to group tight.  There is another group more toward the magic barrel stuff with theories about barrel whip, harmonics and a bunch of things that give a physics teacher the shivers.

I think there may be something other than speed consistency, but certainly not as explained on YouTube by the guys I have seen.  I do know that once the bullet is clear of the barrel, you can't argue that consistent velocity isn't absolutely crucial to bullet point of impact.  How consistent depends on how far you are going, how fast, etc., but if you have a 100 fps spread, it won't group well at any appreciable distance.

I use a chrono to give me solid data that isn't dependent on me, wind or any other of those variables.  I also use it to look at primers, brass, etc and get me to a place where I can start focusing on groups.

[BULLBLASTER]

I’ll also say that I don’t chrono a whole lot of rounds either. 5-6 to get my average and it’s good enough for me.

[b23]

The further you plan to shoot, the lower you'll want your ES.

Adding on to what Yorke posted, back in 2011 when Shawn built my 223AI I gave him a box of factory Hornady Superformance ammo to test fire it.  Even with an ES of 43fps it shot a tiny little three shot group of .112 at 100 yards.

Not trying to diminish the importance of having a low SD/ES because I/we always try to keep it as low as possible, but depending on the distance you are shooting, it may not always be as big of a deal as you think.

Also, I'm a fan of using Imperial dry neck lube and use it all the time.

[Jonathan_S]

Every optimal group I've loaded up ends up being under 20 and most around 15.  Only exception is the 223 that is .3-.5 with 69 SMK in the 40ish ES but darn I sure I can't tell out to 600 with it

[jasnt]

I always strive for the single digit ES.  Anything around half moa is fine for me but if es is much over 10 I see the difference at ranges I’m shooting. That said I’ve also shot one of the best groups of my life at 735 yards with an es of 30.   

[wooltie]

I watched a video about 'finding the flat spot' over a 2 grain spread e.g. 50-52g, in .3g increments, shooting 6.5creed.  The video explained the rationale for using the chrono to find the flat spot and decide on the load because of 'chrono data'.

It's an appealing thought process, and I think it has a place. 

But for what it's worth--this guy on the video shot this 2 grain spread at 100 yards, 6.5creed, and all shots went into a 1" hole.  It's like the powder charge didn't affect the accuracy all that much.

My thought was to find an accurate load/group first, then try to find the flat spot, since the powder charge may not affect the group in some cases.

[jasnt]

I find it’s easier to find the flat spot the fine tune with seating depth

[Karl Blanchard]

I find it’s easier to find the flat spot the fine tune with seating depth

that's my go to usually. Run a velocity test over the chrony and then tune depth.

Brass prep and consistency is a big part of low ES in my opinion. But let's face it, for most of the ranges guys shoot, an ES of 20-30 isn't gonna make a bit of difference over 10-15. 

[b23]

I find it’s easier to find the flat spot the fine tune with seating depth

that's my go to usually. Run a velocity test over the chrony and then tune depth.

Brass prep and consistency is a big part of low ES in my opinion. But let's face it, for most of the ranges guys shoot, an ES of 20-30 isn't gonna make a bit of difference over 10-15.

 

[wooltie]

I find it’s easier to find the flat spot the fine tune with seating depth

that's my go to usually. Run a velocity test over the chrony and then tune depth.

Brass prep and consistency is a big part of low ES in my opinion. But let's face it, for most of the ranges guys shoot, an ES of 20-30 isn't gonna make a bit of difference over 10-15.

That's what I'm doing this go around thanks to input from people on this board.  Last go around the shot groups of different charge weights to find the smallest group, but ended up going in circles.

This time around, I shot 3 different bullets, picked the one that grouped best, then did a SD test.  Just did a chrono test this weekend and now onto fine tuning the SD at 100 yards.  Then I'll shoot at longer ranges.

I'm sure I could have made other bullets work, but I didn't want to mess around that much.

I've shot SGKs, accubonds, interlocks, and partitions of various weights with good powder (shooting 30-06).  By far the SGKs and partitions perform best.  Accubonds are finicky.  I just don't care for the groups.  Partitions and SGKs shoot vertical strings almost touching.

To circle back, I see the value in standard dev and finding the flat spot -- but my short experience has shown me that finding a working seating depth first has been a faster approach to getting something dialed.

[jasnt]

When I’m starting load development I’ll start with a low charge.  Load up some 3 shot groups starting at .015” off the landes or mag length which ever is shorter and seat each group deeper by .030”.   
Which ever shot best I’ll use that seating depth for my load work. I shoot a ladder over my chrono ( I use magneto speed, must have an accurate chrono for this!) target dosent matter.   Look for my upper flat spot near max.  Then I’ll load up 5 shot groups and fine tune my seating depth in .005” increments. 
If you don’t have a magneto speed or labradar then you could do 3 shot ladder test at 300 yards.   
This is my method that’s worked well for me.   Yrmv

[wooltie]

When I’m starting load development I’ll start with a low charge.  Load up some 3 shot groups starting at .015” off the landes or mag length which ever is shorter and seat each group deeper by .030”.   
Which ever shot best I’ll use that seating depth for my load work. I shoot a ladder over my chrono ( I use magneto speed, must have an accurate chrono for this!) target dosent matter.   Look for my upper flat spot near max.  Then I’ll load up 5 shot groups and fine tune my seating depth in .005” increments. 
If you don’t have a magneto speed or labradar then you could do 3 shot ladder test at 300 yards.   
This is my method that’s worked well for me.   Yrmv

 

Yup, thanks!  That's what I did this time; it's been easier and fewer rounds.  I do have a magneto speed too.

[jasnt]

When I’m starting load development I’ll start with a low charge.  Load up some 3 shot groups starting at .015” off the landes or mag length which ever is shorter and seat each group deeper by .030”.   
Which ever shot best I’ll use that seating depth for my load work. I shoot a ladder over my chrono ( I use magneto speed, must have an accurate chrono for this!) target dosent matter.   Look for my upper flat spot near max.  Then I’ll load up 5 shot groups and fine tune my seating depth in .005” increments. 
If you don’t have a magneto speed or labradar then you could do 3 shot ladder test at 300 yards.   
This is my method that’s worked well for me.   Yrmv

 

Yup, thanks!  That's what I did this time; it's been easier and fewer rounds.  I do have a magneto speed too.

hope it works well for you