POLL: Deer Herd Decline, Why?

[D Coates]

Several here do not know more then the area they hunt. I read one that said the mule deer are in good shape? As a overall in wa that comment could not be more wrong. Black tails are in the better shape when compared to mule deer that at this time should not even have a season in wa with white tail not far behind. Fires causeing over harvest out of fear of  land owner complaints, Not allowing control of predators esp cougars and severally mis management by wa state fish and game are the top reason as I see it for the decline in not only our deer but elk as well. You could go on and on adding to this list and all of it compounds the situation but as I see it these are topping the list. If you do not believe we have a problem you really should get out more.   

[NOCK NOCK]

Several here do not know more then the area they hunt. I read one that said the mule deer are in good shape? As a overall in wa that comment could not be more wrong. Black tails are in the better shape when compared to mule deer that at this time should not even have a season in wa with white tail not far behind. Fires causeing over harvest out of fear of  land owner complaints, Not allowing control of predators esp cougars and severally mis management by wa state fish and game are the top reason as I see it for the decline in not only our deer but elk as well. You could go on and on adding to this list and all of it compounds the situation but as I see it these are topping the list. If you do not believe we have a problem you really should get out more.   

FYI, Read the question again, What is the 1 main reason in YOUR area. Yes we all know there are a multitude of reasons.....thats not what this poll is about/for

[Skyvalhunter]

I wonder where the hunters that say habitat loss as the main reason what areas they are hunting.

[X-Force]

I wonder where the hunters that say habitat loss as the main reason what areas they are hunting.

On the west side lack of forestry practices have diminished a lot of public land black tail habitat and on the east side development, roads, wind mills, all on winter ground.

[idahohuntr]

I wonder where the hunters that say habitat loss as the main reason what areas they are hunting.

On the west side lack of forestry practices have diminished a lot of public land black tail habitat and on the east side development, roads, wind mills, all on winter ground.

Lets not forget lack of forest management and logging on the east side, fires on winter range, loss of CRP acres, spread of invasive weeds, increased human disturbance on critical winter range...and probably a whole lot more.

We can all argue about the "primary" factor in any given area...but is there anywhere in the state where anyone can say with a straight face the habitat conditions are improving on a sizable scale?

Habitat degradation and loss is a major factor influencing wildlife abundance all across the Western US.  Predator impacts can be temporary (and cyclical)...usually once habitat is degraded or lost...its permanent...which means a permanent reduction in the carrying capacity and herd size.      

[KFhunter]

I wonder where the hunters that say habitat loss as the main reason what areas they are hunting.

On the west side lack of forestry practices have diminished a lot of public land black tail habitat and on the east side development, roads, wind mills, all on winter ground.

Lets not forget lack of forest management and logging on the east side, fires on winter range, loss of CRP acres, spread of invasive weeds, increased human disturbance on critical winter range...and probably a whole lot more.

We can all argue about the "primary" factor in any given area...but is there anywhere in the state where anyone can say with a straight face the habitat conditions are improving on a sizable scale?

Habitat degradation and loss is a major factor influencing wildlife abundance all across the Western US.  Predator impacts can be temporary (and cyclical)...usually once habitat is degraded or lost...its permanent...which means a permanent reduction in the carrying capacity and herd size.   

Ya, there's a ton of logging going on with federal lands, state too, but national forest logging is going big now.  There's also a lot of prescribed burning going on, lot more than previous years. 

It's been a long time since there was a forest fire in May that made my eyes water, but the smoke was pretty thick couple days ago from all the burning. 

So yes, I think habitat is being improved and I think forest managers are shifting gears and doing more to reduce fuel load in the forest, which is also good habitat improvement.  it's creating mixed forest habitat, some burned, some logged, some older forest, some thinned..little something for everyone. 

Also there's a lot of stuff going on to plant native grasses and create more open meadows in the woods (which also reduces fire load) but creates more diverse habitat.  We need more meadows for sure .

I've never been one to think our current habitat is the limiting factor right now in our ungulate population, but I've always been in favor of improving habitat, and that seems to be getting done.  It can only help.

[msg]

I believe that both sides of the state are suffering from a combination of factors that are listed. The private timberlands in SW. Wa. are managed for trees not wildlife. The lack of diversification is way more obvious than it used to be. Predators yes, last year my buddies trail cams were full of bear pics. Multiple different bears, they used to get mostly dear and elk with an occasional bear. Deer populations seemed to nosedive when the spraying started and the burning quit. That was also about the time hoofrot took off in elk. I have walked into clearcuts that have been recently sprayed. They are graveyard dead. I will never believe that they do not cause harm to wildlife. The Toutle unit used to be loaded with deer. This unit is also very large. This year 18 doe tags, split between youth, over 65 and disabled. However, there are some whopper blacktails that live on the fringes of our communities. Last but not least. Seattle is hilly, take all those windmills in Eastern WA. and put them in Seattle. What an eyesore!!

[AL WORRELLS KID]

Right On MtnMuley,

How can you make a poll with 12 choices, but leave off the list the most important choice, MISMANAGEMENT?

My vote Too, "Other"......Lack of Management, starting at the Top........ (Hard to blame the Critter's, for stupid human mistakes.) 
Doug

[stlusn30-06]

I find it hard to believe those numbers but that would equate to 57,760 elk and deer per year killed by cougars using the low end numbers.
 

Cougars are likely a significant contributor based on the information from the WDFW and the resources you shared. But the article you quoted says "a large male living in the Cascade Mountains", not "all cougars in Washington". Unless cougar biology has changed some, I'm doubting all cougars in Washington are large males. Details matter. Now there's fully two posts in this thread from folks with juice stating Cougars kill 50-100,000 Deer/Elk a year based on a bad reading. There are only ~300,000 deer total in the state. Suggesting cougars kill off 33+% of WA deer every single year is a stretch. Need to find out how many large males living in the Cascade Mountains there are to come up with the number you're looking for.

[bearpaw]

I find it hard to believe those numbers but that would equate to 57,760 elk and deer per year killed by cougars using the low end numbers.
 

Cougars are likely a significant contributor based on the information from the WDFW and the resources you shared. But the article you quoted says "a large male living in the Cascade Mountains", not "all cougars in Washington". Unless cougar biology has changed some, I'm doubting all cougars in Washington are large males. Details matter. Now there's fully two posts in this thread from folks with juice stating Cougars kill 50-100,000 Deer/Elk a year based on a bad reading. There are only ~300,000 deer total in the state. Suggesting cougars kill off 33+% of WA deer every single year is a stretch. Need to find out how many large males living in the Cascade Mountains there are to come up with the number you're looking for.

It's government funded studies done by biologists that have indicated a cougar will kill 25 to 50 deer per year. It is also studies done within yellowstone by biologists that indicate a wolf kills on average the equivalent of 17 elk per year, they actually have it narrowed down to so many pounds of meat per day for each wolf, so in real life that 17 elk is probably something more like 15 deer, 5 moose, and 5 elk to arrive at the total pounds of meat needed. The same is true for cougar, in my own experience I've learned that when a cougar kills an elk it feeds him/her probably three times as long as a deer.

Currently I've heard the state estimates we have 2000 to 4000 cougar depending who you ask, I personally think we are closer to the upper number. If those scientists who did the studies knew what they were doing that means the big cats are eating the equivalent of at least 50,000 deer per year. It should be noted that in some areas government studies have indicated cougar are the most frequent predator on elk, in those type areas where the cats are eating elk they obviously are not eating as many deer, but for example in northern Idaho the cougar predation on elk has been proven to actually exceed wolf predation, combined cougars, wolves, and bear were decimating elk numbers. Now that Idaho allows 2 bear, 2 cougar, 5 hunted wolves and 5 trapped wolves per hunter in the impacted areas we have noticed elk numbers slowly climbing. The big question is what is going to happen in WA where predator management is practically non-existent, I think we are starting to see the answer to that question!

[bearpaw]

Remember, we used to have 500 to 1500 doe permits every year in most NE WA units, since predators have expanded so much we can't even support a youth doe season without causing deer numbers to drop on mild winter years!

Hunter have been replaced by predators, exactly what the greeners want to happen!

[Bango skank]

Remember, we used to have 500 to 1500 doe permits every year in most NE WA units, since predators have expanded so much we can't even support a youth doe season without causing deer numbers to drop on mild winter years!

Hunter have been replaced by predators, exactly what the greeners want to happen!

They even did away with the colville river 2nd deer tag, which was to address vehicle collisions.

[bearpaw]

Remember, we used to have 500 to 1500 doe permits every year in most NE WA units, since predators have expanded so much we can't even support a youth doe season without causing deer numbers to drop on mild winter years!

Hunter have been replaced by predators, exactly what the greeners want to happen!

They even did away with the colville river 2nd deer tag, which was to address vehicle collisions.

That has been solved for a few years, no deer, no collisions, duhhh, WDFW just wasn't on top of the biology or else they were not being honest, it took the local citizens complaining to wake up the commission to the not-so-accurate WDFW regional recommendations! I tried to be nice!

[stlusn30-06]

I find it hard to believe those numbers but that would equate to 57,760 elk and deer per year killed by cougars using the low end numbers.
 

Cougars are likely a significant contributor based on the information from the WDFW and the resources you shared. But the article you quoted says "a large male living in the Cascade Mountains", not "all cougars in Washington". Unless cougar biology has changed some, I'm doubting all cougars in Washington are large males. Details matter. Now there's fully two posts in this thread from folks with juice stating Cougars kill 50-100,000 Deer/Elk a year based on a bad reading. There are only ~300,000 deer total in the state. Suggesting cougars kill off 33+% of WA deer every single year is a stretch. Need to find out how many large males living in the Cascade Mountains there are to come up with the number you're looking for.

It's government funded studies done by biologists that have indicated a cougar will kill 25 to 50 deer per year. It is also studies done within yellowstone by biologists that indicate a wolf kills on average the equivalent of 17 elk per year, they actually have it narrowed down to so many pounds of meat per day for each wolf, so in real life that 17 elk is probably something more like 15 deer, 5 moose, and 5 elk to arrive at the total pounds of meat needed. The same is true for cougar, in my own experience I've learned that when a cougar kills an elk it feeds him/her probably three times as long as a deer.

Currently I've heard the state estimates we have 2000 to 4000 cougar depending who you ask, I personally think we are closer to the upper number. If those scientists who did the studies knew what they were doing that means the big cats are eating the equivalent of at least 50,000 deer per year. It should be noted that in some areas government studies have indicated cougar are the most frequent predator on elk, in those type areas where the cats are eating elk they obviously are not eating as many deer, but for example in northern Idaho the cougar predation on elk has been proven to actually exceed wolf predation, combined cougars, wolves, and bear were decimating elk numbers. Now that Idaho allows 2 bear, 2 cougar, 5 hunted wolves and 5 trapped wolves per hunter in the impacted areas we have noticed elk numbers slowly climbing. The big question is what is going to happen in WA where predator management is practically non-existent, I think we are starting to see the answer to that question!

You've definitely read more and are better educated on this than I am. I was just quoting the article in the original post. In which WDFW said a large male kills every 9-12 days. Which would be 30-40 a year for a large male. If you're up for it, can you link to some additional reading? I'd like to have this info in my back pocket. At 4,000 cougar killing the low end of 25 with the stats you mention, that's 100,000 animals a year. Let's say elk are 5-10% of that, that'd be 5,000 to 10,000 elk a year with a total population of 60,000 in the state, leaving 90,000 deer a year falling to cougar predation. 1/3 of the entire deer population of the state. This would be the grossest mismanagement of wildlife in the modern era. My mind is open. Just haven't dug much into this info in the past. It would certainly answer the question this poll was designed for.

[JimmyHoffa]

If each doe has at least one fawn a year, and breeding does are 1/3 of the population; that segment doubling annually and then half subsequently being converted to predator scat could keep the population looking like it could be somewhat steady.