Raffle permit numbers.

[Bushcraft]

"I would not have put in the last $6K (of $16K) had I not known that some others had thrown in at the very last minute. Instead of being able to simply hit the refresh button on my browser for the updated information, I was driving down the road headed for a backcountry goat counting trip in the Goat Rocks and literally had a last minute telephone conversation with my internal WDFW contact on the other end of the line before that person left for the weekend (who BTW was also frustrated that Licensing wasn't automatically releasing/updating that information in an orderly manner).  Had I not known the most up to date figures had bumped up considerably during the period of time that the numbers went unreported, I wouldn't have bought any more tickets from the nice lady working at the WDFW kiosk in Packwood's grocery store."

So you admit that you were dealing on "inside information" that was not know to to the general public. So much for a "fair raffle". This calls for an investigation of the raffle that is engaged in illegal behavior. Thank you for your honesty. Will you testify in court as to what you have posted here?

Wait...Good grief...Are you serious?  Anyone can call in and ask for the updated numbers anytime WDFW is open.  If that person is smart, they simply save the number of that person's extension.

Here's the number...click through the prompts until you get to the right person that can answer your question.  360-902-2200

 

[Not selected]

Bushcraft. I lean towards your point of view but cut that name calling crap off! Makes a guy look pretty weak

[Bushcraft]

Bushcraft. I lean towards your point of view but cut that name calling crap off! Makes a guy look pretty weak

You're right. I immediately deleted/modified it since he could have just been joking. (But I don't think he was.)

I'll freely admit to have zero patience for people that lack critical thinking skills.

[Pegasus]

The WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales.  Will you testify in court?

[idahohuntr]

If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.

Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.

We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are.  No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.

As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.

Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets. 
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.

Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting.  Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.

[ctwiggs1]

@Bushcraft

So - how many goat tickets ya buying this year?? 😂

[Pegasus]

C'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?

[Bushcraft]

The WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales.  Will you testify in court?

C'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?

Sigh...

Have you ever called into WDFW's main line?  For that matter, have you ever called ANY large entity's main number and been prompted to type in a number that most corresponds to your reason for you calling, and then been routed, and then routed, etc., until you got to someone that could help you? (think about calling your bank for example)  If so, perhaps you noted that sometimes whoever answers the phone and helps you (or not) are just cubicle gophers in a massive outsourced call center and they don't have a dedicated extension (or claim they don't).  Other times, they do...and if they are helpful and you might want to skip all the rigmarole and get the answer to future questions faster, you can write that down (or remember it) so you can request to be immediately routed to that person if you call in again.  Sometimes there are more than one person.

Are you beginning to get the picture?  If not, is there some other way I make this easier for you to understand?

[Pegasus]

The WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales.  Will you testify in court?

C'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?

Sigh...

Have you ever called into WDFW's main line?  For that matter, have you ever called ANY large entity's main number and been prompted to type in a number that most corresponds to your reason for you calling, and then been routed, and then routed, etc., until you got to someone that could help you? (think about calling your bank for example)  If so, perhaps you noted that sometimes whoever answers the phone and helps you (or not) are just cubicle gophers in a massive outsourced call center and they don't have a dedicated extension (or claim they don't).  Other times, they do...and if they are helpful and you might want to skip all the rigmarole and get the answer to future questions faster, you can write that down (or remember it) so you can request to be immediately routed to that person if you call in again.  Sometimes there are more than one person.

Are you beginning to get the picture?  If not, is there some other way I make this easier for you to understand?

Really?      You said: " I was driving down the road headed for a backcountry goat counting trip in the Goat Rocks and literally had a last minute telephone conversation with my INTERNAL WDFW CONTACT on the other end of the line before that person left for the weekend (who BTW was also frustrated that Licensing wasn't automatically releasing/updating that information in an orderly manner).  Had I not known the most up to date figures had bumped up considerably during the period of time that the numbers went unreported, I wouldn't have bought any more tickets from the nice lady working at the WDFW kiosk in Packwood's grocery store."

Stop with the deflection. WILL YOU TESTIFY to what you have posted here?

[Pegasus]

Monitors! Please do not delete any more of the posts on this subject and do not allow any more "edits" Thank you and most of your posters here will, too.

[Rainier10]

I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers.  It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.

Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information.

[Bango skank]

I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers.  It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.

Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information.

Didnt you say that you would NOT have spent an additional 6k if you hadnt known the numbers? Meaning knowing updated numbers INCREASED ticket sales, which is the opposite of what everybody is crying about?  sounds to me like knowing updated numbers increased funding for wildlife 

[Pegasus]

I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers.  It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.

Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information.

Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from  certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.

[Bango skank]

I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers.  It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.

Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information.

Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from  certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.

Life isnt fair dude.  I cant afford to dump that kind of money either, hell theres lots of nice things id like but cant afford, but i dont begrudge those that can.  Buy 5 tickets if thats all you can afford and hope for the best.  its a raffle, youre entitled to nothing.

[Bushcraft]

If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.

Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.

We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are.  No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.

As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.

Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets. 
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.

Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting.  Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.

Good grief. I'm seriously biting my tongue here.

You need to take a remedial Logic course idahohunter.  Neither of your points are evidence or supportive of your opinion that not updating ticket sales would somehow generate more revenue for the department. 

Let's paint this picture differently to try and help you to understand. Let's use the lottery.  MegaMillions Powerball or whatever it's called.

So, take a moment and pause from desperately wanting to be right (or make me appear to be wrong, same difference  ) and reflect upon why the lotteries display the increasing value of a given lottery.

Why is it that the stores and machines that sell them advertise the updated amount you could win if you played?

It's been long since proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the larger the lottery pool, the more people will buy more lottery tickets.  Limited transparency into potential payout, and odds of winning, dramatically diminishes participation.

When the lottery is a "paltry" $15 million, very few people bother playing.  When it builds up to $800 million, LOTS of people play that otherwise wouldn't even remotely consider wasting a buck or two on a lottery ticket. Once that lottery gets up to hundreds of millions, playing at that level is a lark.  As a student of human nature, I can tell you that it's a silly phenomenon because either amount would dramatically alter the lives of the winner.  Accordingly, why don't people play all the time?  Well, due to some oddities of human perception, they are more drawn to the prospects of a potentially larger payout even though they know the odds of winning either are approximately zero.

Now, let's shift gears to raffles for something with a fixed payout value. Fixed in the sense that there is an essentially known value of a given item and there is a ceiling on the value of the item. It's not like a lottery that just gets bigger if no one wins. When it comes to the type of raffles like the ones we are discussing, far fewer people with essentially zero chance of winning will still play but they'll only buy a relatively small number of tickets per person.  The vast majority will only buy one.  That's just the way these things go. That number would change dramatically if it cost $50,000,000 to go on a sheep hunt and the winning raffle ticket was transferable to a willing buyer or redeemable in cash. Understandably, far more people would be willing to take a chance and buy a ticket worth $50MM even if they weren't hunters. But, sheep hunts just don't come anywhere near that coast and there's only a few people - relatively speaking in a state of 7.5MM people, that want to hunt sheep anyway.  In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out since all one has to do is look up the number of people that put in for special permit applications, or even raffle tags for that matter. It's a comparatively small percentage of the population. Again, the vast majority of whom, if historical data is any indication will just buy one ticket, even though they could theoretically buy an unlimited quantity.

But, if there is some perceived chance at increasing their odds of winning a fixed value raffle, some of the people will carefully weigh the "sure thing" cost of just buying the hunt vs. the risk of a gambling loss.  Some will just forego playing, and save up and pay for the hunt outright. Others will have the financial wherewithal to lay down a pile of cash to gain better odds of winning, but they'll only do so up to a point that makes sense to them on a single throw or over a year over year basis. For example, if someone buys 33% percent of the expected number of raffle tickets sold every year, odds are that they'll get it once every three years (with no guarantee of course).  They'll likely end up paying a third of the cost, two thirds of the cost or the full cost for a guided hunt.  If it's a third...great. If it's two-thirds...nice discount.  Full boat...they wanted to go sheep hunting anyway.  If their luck totally sucked, they disposable income at that level is such that they can scrape up something and just go. Bottome line is they are just playing the odds with disposable income that they would nototherwise spend at all if they didn't know the odds. The lower the understanding of what the odds are, the lower the interest level in playing.  The lower the interest level in playing, the lower amount of disposable income they are going to play with.  The lower amount they play with, the lower the revenue generated by the raffle.

It's just that simple.