A Question for bigmacc

[Vine Maples and Cottonwoo]

Hi bigmacc, I read your comments with interest, and today, was reminiscing and thinking. It made me wonder what your thoughts are on the 3 Point Rule, and its affect on the Methow Deer Herd population? Do you think its good or bad? Do you think its contributed to the decline of the herd? Thanks for your thoughts.

[fishnfur]

Perhaps a private message (PM) would work better.   

[bigmacc]

Hi bigmacc, I read your comments with interest, and today, was reminiscing and thinking. It made me wonder what your thoughts are on the 3 Point Rule, and its affect on the Methow Deer Herd population? Do you think its good or bad? Do you think its contributed to the decline of the herd? Thanks for your thoughts.

Well, I remember some periods of time(during 3-4 year blocks of draught) that getting little spindly 2 points and spikes made you the envy of the valley, I remember seeing 200 does a day and only seeing 1 or 2 bucks during the whole 2 week season, I remember one year that in a 3 day period we seen more bucks than we did does(32 bucks-29 does). I remember counting a herd of over 200 deer come through a saddle during a migration and not seeing an antler, I remember my dad telling me of a herd that came up a draw 2 days after a blizzard that consisted of over 300 deer with over half of them being big bucks, he and my great grandma were having fits trying to decide which 2 to shoot, they ended up waiting to long and only ended up with 1 , true story!  As far as the 3 point rule effecting the Methow herd population, and if I think it has contributed to the decline?...no, I don't think it has much to do with the decline and if it does, its way down at the bottom of the list of issues effecting this herd. Just my opinion formed by my history and observations of this herds decline, is predators, predators and more predators, IMO they are the number 1 issue with this herd, not the only 1,  but the number 1 and biggest contributor to this herds decline. Why I think that, is truly through personal observations, family observations of over 100 years and plain old common sense. When my dad was running around this valley as a young man back in the 30,s and 40,s he told me he never seen a cougar and maybe only a bear or 2, coyotes were kept in check through bountys and there were no wolves, still had draughts, fires, and some historical winter kills but this herd was strong, healthy and would bounce back quickly. Up until the dismantling of the Dept of Game and the gloves being put on on how predators were managed this herd rivaled any Mule deer herd in the country, in its prime it numbered at around 40,000 head and at one time(1960,s I believe) the Methow herd was THE largest migrating mule deer herd in the country. Well, like I have said many times, the old timers seeing predators was a rarity, heck, back in the 60,s 70,s and 80,s(my prime time of hunting) I can count on one hand the amount of cougars I seen and I would still have one finger left, 30 years and only running into 4 cougars! I seen that many on one pre season scouting trip about 5 years ago and a friend of mine seen that many in 1 day a couple months ago in a drainage they were riding their horses into. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a Biologist to see whats happened over the last 25 or so years, there is a growing population of a NEW predator in the valley, bears, cougars and coyotes are not being managed the way they once were so in turn their numbers have skyrocketed. All these predators need to eat and every year their numbers are growing and they are killing and eating more, 25 years of this and something is gonna give, unfortunately for some of us that hunt this valley and have a history in this valley this deer herd has taken the beating or you could say it has been sacrificed to a certain extent for the betterment of a thriving predator population. As the deer numbers dwindle, more interactions with people, pets and livestock will occur until the predators either die off or move on, I guess they will control their own numbers. Management, mismanagement who really knows, bottom line, predator numbers have grown over the last 25 years and deer numbers have dropped during the same period, I have drawn my conclusion and everyone is entitled to draw their own.....just my thoughts and my 

[Henrydog]

Amen bigmacc well stated

[HillHound]

 
Couldn’t agree more

[boneaddict]

I basically echo your thoughts Bigmacc.   The three point or better was a good thing IMO.   Herds have had good years and bad years throughout history, mostly dictated by the winter.  The Methow has real winter.     The decline really started when they banned hound hunting. I don't really think bear have been much of an influence compared to cats.   People have been fairly successful at bear hunting without hounds and bait.    Cougar populations have been exponentially getting worse every year.   Then the 'introduction" or rebound of another apex predator was the last nail in the coffin for the herd.   Its been unable to rebound itself.   As Bigmacc stated, it used to be a special rare thing to see a cat.   Not these days.

[bobcat]

Since they refuse to control the number of hunters, I think the 3 point minimum is a good thing. Now that the Methow Valley herd is in such poor shape, I think a 4 point minimum would be even better. Or keep the 3 point minimum but eyeguards don't count.

[bigmacc]

Since they refuse to control the number of hunters, I think the 3 point minimum is a good thing. Now that the Methow Valley herd is in such poor shape, I think a 4 point minimum would be even better. Or keep the 3 point minimum but eyeguards don't count.

I think the real issue is they refuse to control the amount of predators, not that they refuse to control the amount of hunters, controlling predator numbers back down to where they were 25 years ago would turn this herd around within 5 years. If they would just be truthful in their estimates(or not flat out lie about their numbers), I think that would be a good start. I and most anyone who knows this valley will tell you there are many, many more predators in this valley than there has ever been including the wolf who is spreading out here also and I agree with bone and have said it myself that cats are THE issue in this valley when putting the whole "predator problem" under the microscope, over the last 5 years I would wager our group has found over 100 cached cougar kills through out just 218 and the north part of 224, we have found them in Alta and Gardner also but not like we have found them in the north part of the valley. I know they say they like to kick out or kill other cats because they are territorial but with my own eyes I have seen multiple cats within 3-4 mile radiuses. Maybe during breeding season they "bunch up " more or at certain times of year :dunno:I really don't know, I just know we are seeing more and seeing more sign of them every year. The areas that we are finding these kills have been in traditional migration routes and staging areas, both winter routes and spring routes where seeing 5-600 deer congregating in basins and bowls in March, just waiting for the lead does to trigger the migration to head back up were the norm 25 and more years ago. My great grandmas favorite time of year was to hike into some of these areas, sit on a stump and have lunch on a nice spring day while watching and counting hundreds upon hundreds even thousands of deer waiting to make their move, she would hike into these spots every day and then one day they would all be gone, just poof. We have gone into those same areas since the mid 90,s numerous times only to find most of them all but null and void of deer or deer sign, but as said, we have found old kills. We have not run into anything close to the big congregations there were 25 or more years ago, not even close and like I said some of these areas have been null and void of deer. A low number day during hunting season 25 or so ago was seeing 40-50 in a day, average was 80-100, 40-50 years ago you would see a couple hundred a day on a "bad day", in these same areas in the last 25 your lucky to see 5-10. I really do hate having us as hunters have to continue to give in, add more restrictions to us etc. etc just to continue to hunt a dwindling herd when the real issue is these predators who are wacking this herd 24/7/365 and nothing is being done to drastically reduce their numbers or even make a realistic dent in their numbers and yes, mostly because of this states politics. There is a fix out there to help turn hunting around in this state but I doubt it will ever happen and as far as the Methow goes, its filling up with more and more folks who agree with how this state is being run AND ,how this herd and the predators are being managed or mismanaged, thats a whole other story, as some will agree, the "old guard" of this valley is and has been slowly being replaced by folks who would rather have a root canal than to sit down, have a chew and a cold one and BS about hunting. Massey Ferguson's are slowly being replaced by Subarus and the Prius, like bone said and I agree, "its Gods country", its just not that little slice of heaven that I myself have memories of....just my thoughts and 

[Wingin it]

I agree with Bigmacc. I've spent almost 30 years hunting that area and much has changed, and not for the better. I don't think the 3 point rule played a roll either. Moving or shortening the seasons protected a lot of the migration. The writing is on the wall and the WDFW will do nothing to control predators. The only thing we have going for us is that eventually the herd won't be able to support the predator population and the predator population should crash. Then the deer numbers will rebound to some degree, hopefully. Once the deer population grows enough the predator population will again follow suit and the whole cycle starts over again. Hunters don't play that large of a role in the equation I don't think. My 

[no.cen.wa]

About wolves, I was watching a documentary on Yellowstone National Park the other day, they were telling how the elk herds had grown so much that they were taking all the feed, so, they brought in grey wolves,,,, the words they used were  " IT STOPPED THE ELK POPULATION IN IT'S TRACKS"
Well, imagine that! I guess the other predators couldn't do the job? In the methow wolves have put it over the top for sure. They ARE going to be in the Olympic's soon, if not by natural migration they will plant them, guess it will STOP the elk population in it's tracks and WDFW will be happy. That is their plan

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

The elk population has pretty much been stopped.
Most herds have been reduced systematically by the WDFW to be below carrying capacity, and forage base removed by private timber practices has eliminated their ability to recover.
Don't get me started on the hoof rot issue...
"Watchable Wildlife" has become a diversion, much like the statewide trout fishing derby, walleye and bass focus has attempted to make it look like increased opportunity, with the loss of our salmon and steelhead fishing.
Elk and deer are going to be "watchable" but not sustainable as a "consumable" resource, unless you have some deep pockets.
.
Unfortunately the people in charge (voters and politicians) got participation trophies, and think that nature is kind and forgiving.
Everyone deserves a chance, hard work and effort is as rare as common sense.
.
But I do have to say, this new director might be smarter than your average bear..
Could we be on the path to recovery?
I know that I am going to put out an effort to kill some predators, and if the changes to the bear season is any indication, can cougar be far behind?
.
One can only hope that our children will have stories to tell about how the hunting/fishing was saved for their children.

[Vine Maples and Cottonwoo]

Thanks bigmacc, and everyone else, for your insights and replies. Much appreciated.