Buck to doe ratio

[bigskyhounds]

Never really put much thought into this subject just happened to check out some old photos the day of one of the NEWWG meetings. The topic was brought up and there were some interesting thoughts on this for sure! Thought this was a good pic to show that ratio. I know it's only a pic and there could be bucks just out of view...but not many bucks especially mature ones out there.

This is in the mountains on private property near state and timber ground. Being a couple year old picture I'm sure the predators have taken a toll and you wouldn't have half these deer on camera now.

[Skyvalhunter]

Doe to buck ratio is a figure that WDFW loves to use. I don't care if the rato is 15 bucks to 100 does or 20 bucks to 100 does. What I want to know also is the actual count if there is only 100 deer total compared to 2000 2 years ago I am going to be worried.

[huntnnw]

lotta that deer park, clayton,springdale,elk and chewelah area buck to doe ratio is so outta whack for so many years in the field areas. I use to live out there and spend thousands of hours glassing from March to December thousands of trail cam pics and a lot of these areas it was 25 does to 1 buck or worse. There was a couple fields that would be loaded with deer and it was 60-80 does and maybe 3 dink bucks. One thing that trail cams have been able to do for people who run lots of them for years is to see deer herds in areas. I have noticed when I hunt away from ag areas and get up into the national forest miles away from fields where its not a option for them and target mountain whitetails the buck to doe ratio has always been very good. I have hunted areas in 204,101 and 105 where there is a 50/50 ratio of bucks and does and the worst might be a buck for every 3 does

[JL]

I scout/hunt year round. NE WA whitetails are on a serious decline imo. I have a spot within the areas you mention, NW. It used to host a very healthy herd w/ bucks of all age classes. No bucks anymore, barely any does. More north, closer to the border, I'd say it's just as disgusting. Bear population was out of control this year. Cougars were snatching up elk calves, Grizz moving in hard. Sit out on a higher elevation listening point at 1am just to hear the wolves howl. Night after night. Hate to sound so pessimistic but these are the facts from what I've seen.

[huntnnw]

whitetail numbers are half of what they were 5 years ago, some areas Id venture to say they have lost 75% of the deer. I have spots in 105 that its a feat to get a whitey on cam and 5 years ago there was lots of deer, 5-9 different bucks on my cams and last year some had none! pretty sad to see this decline

[boneaddict]

I think the ratio thing is a flawed factor in their management practice.  In no way shape or form should they be adding doe permits when densities are so low, to manage to a ratio.

Anecdotally, during the rut, the ground opens up and bucks become visible that were there all the time, just not seen.  In fact I venture that before the invention of the trailcam, there were many whitetail bucks that werent ever seen by human eyes. 

[Bango skank]

I think the ratio thing is a flawed factor in their management practice.  In no way shape or form should they be adding doe permits when densities are so low, to manage to a ratio.

Killing does is the easiest, most effective way to increase buck to doe ratios, but its only a valid option when your deer population is high enough to support killing off does.  Ours is NOT.  since we cant afford to kill does due to our low overall deer population, the next best thing to increase buck to doe ratios is the antler point restriction.  Protect all those stupid, too-easy-to-kill peckerhead bucks.  Bring back the 4pt apr, but this time for the entire ne corner, if not all whitetail units.

[boneaddict]

That would be my move, and eliminate all the special doe permits.  All of them! Even the feel good ones.

[baldopepper]

That would be my move, and eliminate all the special doe permits.  All of them! Even the feel good ones.

. I agree.  I know many wouldn't like it, but I also think it might be time to eliminate the late hunt for a while also. The bucks did show up late in that hunt this year, but there was also a ton of hunters out chasing them.  (Around my place there were a lot more hunters than there were for the early hunt). Also found two more small mule deer bucks near the road that had been shot and left. Wardens at the Miles/Creston checking station said they had reports of several more mule deer shot and left.  I enjoy the late hunt, but not sure it's in the best interest for the either of the herds

[Henrydog]

Baldapepper I reluctantly agree with you.  I have hunted Steven PO and Ferry Co for a long long time.  This is the fewest amount of Whitetail I have seen in 25 years.  The late season was always IMO the easiest time to fill a tag, this year even the does were few and far between.  Doe hunts need to stop and APR need to be held for more than a season of two so they can actually work.

My Fear with this though is 2 fold.  I don't think APR have help the Mule deer recover at all.  I am aware there are separate management issues with Mulie's but their number have not recovered under the 3 point restrictions.

2nd my main fear in this State.  Once they take something they never give it back. 

[boneaddict]

I have fewer fears about the whitetails ability to recover than muleys.     

[Gobble Doc]

That would be my move, and eliminate all the special doe permits.  All of them! Even the feel good ones.

Agreed


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[Wsucoug]

I hunt 117 in the heavy timber, (not the valley) and i just want to add fuel to the fire.  I have an enclosed tree stand that often puts me in view of up to 14 deer at a time during late season,  often with 2 or 3 mature bucks in the area. This year I had two forkie's trying to be the dominate buck in the area.  Not a single deer even near maturity on camera and I run 10 camera's in the area and easily get at least of 30,000 pictures a year (i never actually counted but it's a lot).  I have had many of these cameras in the same spot since 2012. For the last couple years I can say I get more cougar pictures and mature buck pictures.

[nwalpineguide]

In my humble opinion, I emphatically agree with Boneaddict. As this is true as well for mule deer where I run multiple trail cameras within and outside the GPW. Have done so now since 2010. Without these units and field surveys by professionals...inferences and anecdotal snippits is all we have to base CONCLUSIONS upon.

[bigskyhounds]

The interesting thing I heard was if that ratio is too low and only a portion of the does are being bred the first cycle it spreads out the drop dates. This allows predators to kill more fawns.

Some herds will go through declines sometimes huge drops in numbers. Whether it be from blue tounge or hard winters. The ability to rebound depends on pressure. I know everyone here knows it but our predator problem is out of control and if wdfw doesn't do something it will only get worse. There will be no rebound.

There were a couple guys at the meeting in chewelah and they were talking about how they didn't care we got the 2 bear limit changed. they had never shot a bear and didn't have any desire to. they were worried about the deer and the elk though. Maybe these guys don't realize how hard bears are on fawns and calves but if you care about the herds buy a bear tag and shoot one!

[hunter399]

I agree with almost the posts on this topic.
The deer counts are a joke .what about deer/public land ratio which at a big zero for some areas.NE wa is all screwed up I do agree on that.

[buckfvr]

That would be my move, and eliminate all the special doe permits.  All of them! Even the feel good ones.

. I agree.  I know many wouldn't like it, but I also think it might be time to eliminate the late hunt for a while also. The bucks did show up late in that hunt this year, but there was also a ton of hunters out chasing them.  (Around my place there were a lot more hunters than there were for the early hunt). Also found two more small mule deer bucks near the road that had been shot and left. Wardens at the Miles/Creston checking station said they had reports of several more mule deer shot and left.  I enjoy the late hunt, but not sure it's in the best interest for the either of the herds

Just by nature of the 4pt minimum for n.e. whitetails, not only would hunter numbers decline for the late hunt, but also the general season.  No one seems to think they can find a 4pt.   

[Bango skank]

There were a couple guys at the meeting in chewelah and they were talking about how they didn't care we got the 2 bear limit changed. they had never shot a bear and didn't have any desire to. they were worried about the deer and the elk though. Maybe these guys don't realize how hard bears are on fawns and calves but if you care about the herds buy a bear tag and shoot one!

 

This attitude drives me crazy.  People who bitch about deer numbers, but refuse to make any attempt to kill their predators.  If you wont even buy bear and lion tags i dont think you really have any right complaining about the lack of deer.

Hell, the way things are going, hunting bear in august is about the best big game opportunity we have now anyway.  Easier to find a bear in august than it is to find a buck in november imo.  If nothing else its a way to get some meat in the freezer incase you get skunked when deer season comes around.

[HillHound]

Me too! I don’t get it. Same with the guys who say they never would because they wouldn’t eat it. Give it to someone if you don’t want it. I’m sure they didn’t bbq every mouse they caught in their wall tent or garage this year. But maybe they are using mini havaHart traps and just release them back into the wild