Were wolves imported into Washington on the downlow?

[bigmacc]

So, to all of you guys that think this is from just "spreading".....where were all the wolves from 1950- 2010 and what caused the population explosion we have today. 

I saw my first Washington wolf pack in about 82.  Male, female and pups

There was a wolfpack in Libby Creek almost two decades before they finally admitted it.  Todd and I know they knew about it because we were in the same conference room where they told us to keep our mouths shut about it and to deny it if asked. THey were actually trying to teach us that....let that sink in.     If you think they closed Alta for deer hunting and coyote hunting for several years because of deer management, you should go back to your cubicle. 


Wolves have been here since the dawn of time, why now the problem?

and remind me again when they discovered our first wolfpack?

  .....On two separate occasions my dad and I were also told to "keep our mouths shut", and we were also told that "we didn't see anything", one instance involved sheep being released in the early 1970,s(or late 60,s ) up the Swakane and another involved a wolf we seen in the early 90,s in the Methow. My family has covered dang near every square inch of that valley going back to 1917, have been friends with packers and some of the original residents of this valley, some of which had history going back to the 1860,s. Wolves have always "been around" in this valley but like cougars, were almost a treat if you ever actually got a chance to see one back in the day. The 100 or so residents of "Little Bellingham Camp" going back to 1917 never saw a wolf, my dad said that they heard them one year up around Andrews creek(1957 I believe he said), another time up around Black Canyon and once up Gold Creek. Thats 100 people or so covering miles and miles of terrain over a 100 year time frame during all 4 seasons in thais valley, hiking, hunting, scouting, fishing etc. on foot and on horseback and rarely HEARING wolves, but never seeing any, knowing they were there but were never in numbers like today. Cougar populations boomed after the gloves were put on concerning how we were able to hunt them, period. Why the HUGE spike in wolf numbers in the Methow over the last 25 years or so? Why, (if this "natural spreading" from Canada, which is just a few dozen miles or so to the north of the town of Winthrop)didn't the wolves set up shop in great numbers from Winthrop north first, then over the years continue moving south down the Valley? Seems they all "just appeared" in the middle valley, something that leaves some folks scratching their heads, a lot of folks who have history there and know the area. Its easy to see and understand the population explosion of cougars and bears over the last 25 or so years, its not rocket science, wolves are another issue, as far as the Methow goes, things make no sense, they don't add up and many common sense questions cannot be answered and in some instances won't be answered. Had an old packer tell me a few years ago concerning the whole "they migrated here from Canada"theory, the very thought I mentioned earlier, If they have been "migrating into the Methow from Canada, then why weren't they being seen in more and more numbers in the north part of the valley over the years, there was plenty of food for them, very little human encroachment etc., they would have had thousands of square miles to breed, eat etc., all pretty much undisturbed, but instead, these wolves who folks have known were out there since the beginning of time basically all the sudden decided to be seen everywhere in a certain area in the middle of the Valley, all within a few year period, no gradual increase in sightings over the years moving south down the valley, it was just like they all travelled miles and miles through prime wolf habitat that was full of food to all congregate in a certain area of the valley and it all happened very quickly. I am not a conspiracy person at all,  but like that old packer told me "there is no way in hell those wolves ended up in the area they did, AND in the numbers they did AND within the short timeframe they did, without help", those were his words and they make sense.

[jackelope]

This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
 

Call me crazy. It's nothing new.

[Bango skank]

This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
 

Call me crazy. It's nothing new.

Its a good point.  Sightings, pictures etc travel further, faster, and to far more ears now than ever before, thanks to the internet.  Things you would have only heard from the neighbor, or at the bar or grange or wherever in a rural community before, now people everywhere hear about those sightings and incidents, and instantaneously.

[KFhunter]

This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
 

Call me crazy. It's nothing new.

Sooo, your theory is that the internet has caused the wolf expansion?


For me the opposite is true,  the internet has caused me to not be in the woods nearly as much      
When I was bored I went hunting, hiking and being outdoors...now I turn on the computer or look at my phone, and I'm out there less as a result.

[boneaddict]

For my part, not much influence from social media or even from here.  I do best utilizing my own observations and experiences.   I doubt many on here have had very many face to face encounters with a wolf.   

[pianoman9701]

All due respects, I'm not sure what having a face-to-face encounter has to do with whether or not they were transplanted or migrated naturally from the  GYA, Doug. I intensely dislike populating our state with parasite-carrying grey wolves from Canada and I've had very little exposure except for one encounter and at a zoo. It certainly might make a difference to those in Seattle who think these cuddly creatures should be everywhere and don't see a downside to them like you and others in the NE see. I have zero argument with you about that. But before I'm willing to hitch my horse to the transplant theory, I'm going to need to see evidence. 

[pianoman9701]

...and show me that evidence and I'll be among the strongest voices demanding action against those who participated in the releases.

[boneaddict]

It means boots on the ground Pman.   Seen the change first hand, experience of wolves in the first place.   In other words I guess Social media has influenced you.  Otherwise would you even know where the Methow is, or how wolves have impacted it?  Why would you need to see the evidence?  Has it impacted your life in Vancouver?  Yet?
Your experience with wolves has little impact on my life, in other words... I am not influenced much by social media in regards to wolves, thus answering or giving my opinion on Jackelope's thought.

Does that help?

and show me that evidence and I'll be among the strongest voices demanding action against those who participated in the releases.

No one is going to see that evidence (if there is any) until someone wants to make money on a book deal and the statue of limitations runs out on the crime.

[KFhunter]

It helps me a lot,  I didn't understand what Jackalope was getting at with the internet comment. 

[bigmacc]

This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
 

Call me crazy. It's nothing new.

Its a good point.  Sightings, pictures etc travel further, faster, and to far more ears now than ever before, thanks to the internet.  Things you would have only heard from the neighbor, or at the bar or grange or wherever in a rural community before, now people everywhere hear about those sightings and incidents, and instantaneously.

Well I can only speak to the Methow but back then(pre internet stuff) dang near everybody knew everybody in the Methow, if So and So cut his finger off while splitting kindling up in Mazama then  So and So would hear about it in Pateros within a week. I remember back in the early 70,s those 2 big bucks that my dad and I had killed way up in the north valley, we filled up with gas in Pateros on our way home about 10 days later, the guy at the station had heard about our 2 bucks and wanted to know if he could take a picture of them. The last sentence of my above post is key IMHO, that packer, who grew up there, lived there, worked there and had experience with the wildlife there, saying that there is no way that this happened the way it did WITHOUT HELP, I will believe folks like that, with his history and pedigree before believing most of the stuff you read on the internet, as far as wolves in the Methow go. As far as other parts of the state, I can't and won't comment on that because I have no history, there is a chance wolves could have migrated into this state in certain areas, they could have been "helped" into other areas, could have illegally been moved by "other partys" in certain areas and could have been " secretly planted" in areas. The for sure thing is, the wolf population has exploded AND expanded over the last 25 or so years FOR SOME REASON, think about that and ask why now? and how did it just happen, why didn't it happen before and why did it basically coincide with the other predator booms in this state(bear and cougar), they all needed help to get to this point, bear and cougar got help at the ballot box through politics, no more hound hunting equals a booming population. Now how do we help wolf numbers they contemplated....hmmm, we can't limit hunting like we did for cougars and bears, so what can we do to kickstart a population serge and expansion? WAIT, I know, lets just let them MIGRATE into areas there are great food sources!......REALLY! There are some folks out there that believe ALL of it, like I said, I,m sure it(the migrating theory) has happened in some areas but on the other hand, I am not naive enough to believe that ALSO in some OTHER areas that they have "been helped" in some way to bolster their numbers and expand their turf, either by planting them in some areas or moving them from point A to point B.

[boneaddict]

It helps me a lot,  I didn't understand what Jackalope was getting at with the internet comment.

I am betting that you are more influenced from the fact you cant go for a ten minute walk from your house without hitting wolf tracks than you are from social media.

[jackelope]

It helps me a lot,  I didn't understand what Jackalope was getting at with the internet comment. 

My only point wasn't really even a point. More a question. For the folks like P-man and I who are not in wolf central, how much info would even get to guys like us if everyone and their dog wasn't reading and talking about wolves literally every day on hunt-wa and facebook and the like? How would we even know in other words. The way it was in 1985 without all this social media stuff.

 

[jackelope]

This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
 

Call me crazy. It's nothing new.

Sooo, your theory is that the internet has caused the wolf expansion?


For me the opposite is true,  the internet has caused me to not be in the woods nearly as much      
When I was bored I went hunting, hiking and being outdoors...now I turn on the computer or look at my phone, and I'm out there less as a result.

No, not at all. But it has caused wide spread knowledge of the wolves. Avenues for knowledge of the wolves to spread.

[pianoman9701]

It means boots on the ground Pman.   Seen the change first hand, experience of wolves in the first place.   In other words I guess Social media has influenced you.  Otherwise would you even know where the Methow is, or how wolves have impacted it?  Why would you need to see the evidence?  Has it impacted your life in Vancouver?  Yet?
Your experience with wolves has little impact on my life, in other words... I am not influenced much by social media in regards to wolves, thus answering or giving my opinion on Jackelope's thought.

Does that help?

and show me that evidence and I'll be among the strongest voices demanding action against those who participated in the releases.

No one is going to see that evidence (if there is any) until someone wants to make money on a book deal and the statue of limitations runs out on the crime.

I respectfully disagree about the social media aspect. I knew about the introduction of wolves into the GYA in 1995 while they were still in the planning stages from print hunting-related media and I opposed it with letters and emails. I will agree that not nearly as many people knew about it at that time because of the lack of social media interaction. I'm unsure if the introduction of social media helped or hindered the plan to let the Canadian wolves spread throughout the West. I suspect it helped because of the ignorance in metropolitan areas with regards to real wildlife management.

As far as evidence is concerned, I've got to see it. Gut instincts don't cut the cake when we're talking about allegations which could end up in terminations and, in fact, incarcerations.

[jackelope]

This is probably a crazy theory to a lot of folks but do we ever stop to think that the advent of social media and everyone talking about everything all day long and people meeting new people and the long range rumor mill and all that has something to do with this? Pre-social media, I'm not sure how I would have ever even heard of a wolf pack in the Methow or anywhere else for that matter had it not been talked about in forums like this and other social media avenues. I think social media magnifies the presence of wolves in the sense they were always there to a degree....they just weren't talked about.
 

Call me crazy. It's nothing new.

Its a good point.  Sightings, pictures etc travel further, faster, and to far more ears now than ever before, thanks to the internet.  Things you would have only heard from the neighbor, or at the bar or grange or wherever in a rural community before, now people everywhere hear about those sightings and incidents, and instantaneously.

Well I can only speak to the Methow but back then(pre internet stuff) dang near everybody knew everybody in the Methow, if So and So cut his finger off while splitting kindling up in Mazama then  So and So would hear about it in Pateros within a week. I remember back in the early 70,s those 2 big bucks that my dad and I had killed way up in the north valley, we filled up with gas in Pateros on our way home about 10 days later, the guy at the station had heard about our 2 bucks and wanted to know if he could take a picture of them. The last sentence of my above post is key IMHO, that packer, who grew up there, lived there, worked there and had experience with the wildlife there, saying that there is no way that this happened the way it did WITHOUT HELP, I will believe folks like that, with his history and pedigree before believing most of the stuff you read on the internet, as far as wolves in the Methow go. As far as other parts of the state, I can't and won't comment on that because I have no history, there is a chance wolves could have migrated into this state in certain areas, they could have been "helped" into other areas, could have illegally been moved by "other partys" in certain areas and could have been " secretly planted" in areas. The for sure thing is, the wolf population has exploded AND expanded over the last 25 or so years FOR SOME REASON, think about that and ask why now? and how did it just happen, why didn't it happen before and why did it basically coincide with the other predator booms in this state(bear and cougar), they all needed help to get to this point, bear and cougar got help at the ballot box through politics, no more hound hunting equals a booming population. Now how do we help wolf numbers they contemplated....hmmm, we can't limit hunting like we did for cougars and bears, so what can we do to kickstart a population serge and expansion? WAIT, I know, lets just let them MIGRATE into areas there are great food sources!......REALLY! There are some folks out there that believe ALL of it, like I said, I,m sure it(the migrating theory) has happened in some areas but on the other hand, I am not naive enough to believe that ALSO in some OTHER areas that they have "been helped" in some way to bolster their numbers and expand their turf, either by planting them in some areas or moving them from point A to point B.

These days, I would have known about the finger injury before that kindling was making heat. The bucks you guys killed would have been known about before they were quartered up and packed off the mountain.