Got a response from the WDFW concerning CWP

[gottatree]

So now we manage wildlife by what is socialy unacceptable. If this does not just piss everybody off on this board, I do not know what will, bowhunting will be next. Can you send me the link to this statement the WDFW made. I would like to see it and confront some of them on it!!

[Snapshot]

The Department's Mik MIkitik needs to go into a corner office, sit down in front of his bosses (D. Brittell and D. Ware) and get his facts straight. For the record; the Washington Archery Coalition was asked about a year and a half ago by the Washington Muzzleloaders Association and the Washingtonians for Wildlife Conservation if we would oppose a move to remove the restriction on sidearms for second amendment reasons. I polled TBW's membership and (to my surprise) found a strong majority of them were not against the idea of the restriction going away. In fact many of them expressed safety concerns and said they liked the idea. I reported this to the Coalition. The Coalition took a neutral position and testified that if people want the sidearm restriction to go away, then we weren't going to object. More recently we were asked if we cared whether a permit requirement was attached to it so we testifed that it wasn't our fight in the first place and that we don't care what the department decides to do.

[bowhuntin]

The commission has always been concerned about the potential for individual bowhunters to use a sidearm to unlawfully kill big game.  Knowing that individuals with concealed pistol licenses (CPL) are thoroughly vetted through a criminal background history check, the commission has a high level of confidence that CPL holders will not wish to jeopardize their license.  There is no such assurance with the general hunter who does not possess a CPL.

  if they are so concerned with the individual bowhunters to take big game unlawfully, why are they not concerned with those that are out with high powered rifle's hunting bear at the same time archers are in the woods? Or those that are out hunting dove or grouse and happen to be carrying a sidearm. Should they have to have a CPL to so we know they are far more moral than the rest of us that don't have a CPL and therefore can be trusted more? What a stupid law. Just more stupid gun control. More restraints put on the law abiding while the criminals do what ever the f*ck they please because they don't give a sh*t and never will.

[bowhuntin]

So now we manage wildlife by what is socialy unacceptable. If this does not just piss everybody off on this board, I do not know what will, bowhunting will be next. Can you send me the link to this statement the WDFW made. I would like to see it and confront some of them on it!!

Here is the link...

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/2009-2011_recommendations/final_2009_03_20/small_game_seasons.pdf

On the second page 3rd paragraph. The legislature brought up the issue due to social issues. They even say it isn't biologically based.

[rainshadow1]

I wasn't aware of the "outdoor recreation" clause either.  I thought it had to be open carry.

Still, all the more reason to maintain your concealed carry permit.  

[JoshT]

This isn't more gun control... it's less. Before archery and mz hunters were not allowed to carry... now they are, don't see that as more control. It's a return to what's right.

To take this one step further... why shouldn't a guy with a bow tag not be allowed to carry a rifle? After all, it is also bear season... so why should we restrict their access to a .300 Win Mag?

Would it make more sense to everyone if the WDFW would havve worded it this way:

Archery and Muzzleloader hunters shall not have on their person, or immediate access to a firearm. If you have a CPL, we can do nothing about it because of constitutional rights... and the state permit which supercedes our authority... so you can carry, eventhough we'd prefer you didn't.

[Kain]

It's not BS...

If you hunted with a MZ or bow last year... you couldn't even have a gun in the truck, let alone on your person. This is a violation of my right to carry a pistol under the conditions of my CPL... regardless of what the game rules say. So, they had to make the concession in the game regulations to CPL holders because this is a "Must Issue" state.... and they can't restrict your rights to carry in areas that are out of their control. But, they didn't have to make the same concession to other hunters who don't have a CPL, because their rights to carry aren't protected at the same level as the CPL holders... hence the way it's written.

I don't like the way the letter was worded, or the way they use the CPL checking process to assign higher morals to the CPL holder... but the regulation makes sense to me. YOU PUT THE RESTRICTIONS ON YOURSELF BY PURCHASING A BOW OR MZ TAG... YOU, NOT ANYONE ELSE.

I dont understand your reasoning here.  You are saying they had to let you carry because of the conditions of your CPL.  We are saying they have to let us carry because we are exempt from even needing a CPL.  Why are they forced to let you have your rights but it is perfectly fine to take mine away.  Why is my right to carry not protected at the same level as a CPL holder?  When we are hunting we are not required to have a CPL so a CPL has NO worth whatsoever.  A CPL holder and a non-CPL holder have exactly the same rights while hunting.  The law that requires a CPL "shall not apply to" hunters.

[JoshT]

Your not exempt from needing it... because you agree to the the limits placed on your access to a firearm by the WDFW when you purchase a bow or mz tag. Because you DON'T have a CPL... they have they DO have the authority to restrict your access to a firearm... basically for it to be a "legal outdoor activity" you have to be within the parameters set by the group that defines what's legal... in the case of hunting with a bow or mz... that would be the WDFW. If you have a CPL... you don't have to worry about the "legal outdoor activity" clause... because you've already established your right to carry when and where you please... and the WDFW can do nothing about that.

Your right to carry as a non-CPL holder is already limited. My right to carry has been established by going through the process of obtaining a license... thereby granting me extended rights in situations like this.... or the Southcenter Mall... or my car... etc.

[Machias]

"To take this one step further... why shouldn't a guy with a bow tag not be allowed to carry a rifle? After all, it is also bear season... so why should we restrict their access to a .300 Win Mag?"   Actually if I'm bear hunting I can carry both a bow and a .300 win mag, since both are legal to harvest a bear.  It's funny, MT, ID, AK no problem carrying a sidearm during archery hunts.  I guess they can be trusted and we can't.

[JoshT]

NOBODY IS TELLING YOU YOU CAN'T CARRY... THEY ONLY ASK THAT YOU GO THROUGH THE PROPER CHANNELS TO DO SO.

How is that different than having a hunters safety exemption for those born before 1965... or whatever year it is? Shouldn't you just be able to go buy a hunting license... after all, their the taxpayer's critters. Yet, somehow... I have to jump through a hoop... so do you... yet that hoop is ok, and this hoop isn't?

[Machias]

I'm finished, it's been a good discussion but we're all just going round and round.  I'll be bowhunting this fall with a sidearm in plain view and without a CPL.  And I'll be legal, because I'll be hunting a different state.

[Kain]

Your not exempt from needing it... because you agree to the the limits placed on your access to a firearm by the WDFW when you purchase a bow or mz tag. Because you DON'T have a CPL... they have they DO have the authority to restrict your access to a firearm... basically for it to be a "legal outdoor activity" you have to be within the parameters set by the group that defines what's legal... in the case of hunting with a bow or mz... that would be the WDFW. If you have a CPL... you don't have to worry about the "legal outdoor activity" clause... because you've already established your right to carry when and where you please... and the WDFW can do nothing about that.

Your right to carry as a non-CPL holder is already limited. My right to carry has been established by going through the process of obtaining a license... thereby granting me extended rights in situations like this.... or the Southcenter Mall... or my car... etc.

I understand your argument.  But what Im asking you is why did they have to change the law in the first place?  Because (this is a quote from you) "This is a violation of my right to carry a pistol under the conditions of my CPL... regardless of what the game rules say.So, they had to make the concession in the game regulations to CPL holders because this is a "Must Issue" state.... and they can't restrict your rights to carry in areas that are out of their control."

How is the new rule any different than the last rule.  If you were forced to give up your rights to carry by buying an archery or MZL tag you did the same thing last year.  How did the CPL give you more rights to carry while hunting than a person without one, when a CPL is not required?

[JoshT]

Good enough... and should I choose to hunt with my MZ... I'll be carrying too... legaly, with my CPL... just like I do every other day of the year.

Machias... I appreciate your passion here... I truly do. I'm grateful to you for serving as an LEO... that is often a thankless job. I also appreciate the fact that you were able to debate this rather heated topic without the use of personal insults (except for that one early on... but that was a minor infraction)... I've tried to do the same. I wish you luck in the coming season, and hope that someday we'll actually agree on something.

[JoshT]

How is the new rule any different than the last rule.  If you were forced to give up your rights to carry by buying an archery or MZL tag you did the same thing last year.  How did the CPL give you more rights to carry while hunting than a person without one, when a CPL is not required?

The rules of the WDFW cannot override the laws of the state of WA... under such law and as a CPL holder, they cannot restrict my access to a pistol. As the previous WDFW rule was written... it was in conflict with this right. As a non-CPL holder... you are subject to the "lawful outdoor activity" clause in order to carry a pistol. The WDFW gets to decide what's lawful and what's not in regards to hunting and fishing... so, they dicide it isn't lawful to carry a pistol while hunting with a bow or mz... and the state is bound to honor that in regard to the carrying of a pistol. The converse however, is not true. Because I have been granted the right to carry a pistol at all times by the STATE, through the process they require... that rule does not apply to me... therefore the WDFW cannot make it unlawful for me to be in posession of a pistol concealed or open.

The very act of carrying a pistol durring archery or mz season is unlawfull as defined by the WDFW regulations... thereby exempting you from the "lawfull outdoor activity" adendum to the CC laws... which means no CPL... no pistola. This is why the change was made and worded the way it is.

[Machias]

Good luck to you as well JoshT.  We probably agree on most things, just not this one.