22 points

[Karl Blanchard]

It’s more agrevating than anything, one year I was the first loser in the bull category.  Like rainier said, the highest point holders, don’t draw very often.

it's a numbers thing though right? FAR more people in the 10-15 range then there are 20+ so it is more likely that a lower point individual is gonna end up with a tag than a max point individual.

[D-Rock425]

I keep thinking about what if they made 25% of the the tags preference draw for all the hunts that have 4 or more tags.  It would at least give the guys with top points a little better chance of drawing.  Then 75% of the tags stay in current system.

[huntnnw]

Some guys were complaing about how once again they hadn’t drawn deer or elk with 17 points . I then find out they had only applied 5 times in the drawing ! Rest of those years were points only ! Wtf. You took your name out of the hat! Pretty dumb

[Rainier10]

Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order 

I think so.  For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in.  I think they could do the same thing with the draw.

They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw.  I said I thought there would be a huge interest.  It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple.  Explaining it is a little tricky.  I offered to help in any way possible.  It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.

[trophyhunt]

It’s more agrevating than anything, one year I was the first loser in the bull category.  Like rainier said, the highest point holders, don’t draw very often.

it's a numbers thing though right? FAR more people in the 10-15 range then there are 20+ so it is more likely that a lower point individual is gonna end up with a tag than a max point individual.

exactly

[bobcat]

Also the thing is the people with the highest number of points don't generally apply for the easier to draw permits. And when you're looking at numbers like two permits available, and 400 applications, that's tough draw odds, max points or not. You think about it, without a point system a person could expect to possibly draw a permit like that once every 200 years. So having the point system doesn't really change that. The odds are still 1 in 200 and if you don't draw in 20 or 25 years, don't be surprised.

[trophyhunt]

Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order 

I think so.  For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in.  I think they could do the same thing with the draw.

They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw.  I said I thought there would be a huge interest.  It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple.  Explaining it is a little tricky.  I offered to help in any way possible.  It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.

agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.

[Rainier10]

It’s more agrevating than anything, one year I was the first loser in the bull category.  Like rainier said, the highest point holders, don’t draw very often.

it's a numbers thing though right? FAR more people in the 10-15 range then there are 20+ so it is more likely that a lower point individual is gonna end up with a tag than a max point individual.

You are exactly right Karl, there is so much more to it than having max points.  The 10 guys with max points are still up against 1,500 guys with 17 points and 1,600 guys with 16 points and so on.  So combined names in the hat the guys in the 10-15 range have more names combined than the max point guys combined.

I look at it just like the raffle.  There are 2,000 people that buy 1-4 eastern elk raffle tickets each, totaling 5,500 tickets sold.  There are a few whales that buy 1,500-2,000 tickets each, for 5,500 tickets.  The three whales have half of the tickets but the masses have the other half.  That means that there is a 50-50 chance a whale or a regular guy wins.

It's all a gamble.

The benefit to the raffle as a half full guy is I get to keep my dream of drawing a great tag alive a little longer.

[dilleytech]

My buddys 84 year old uncle finally drew a Cowichee Bull tag with 24 points. He is pretty stoked

How does this happen when Steve Rinella draws a Blues tag while living in the state for two years? 

SR1

The tag Steve drew didn’t have too bad of odds as do some other archery quality elk tags. Most guys with 20 points still in disbelief there not getting drawn are putting in really hard to draw rifle tags. Guys need to consider less desirable tags if they want opportunity.

[Rainier10]

Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order 

I think so.  For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in.  I think they could do the same thing with the draw.

They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw.  I said I thought there would be a huge interest.  It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple.  Explaining it is a little tricky.  I offered to help in any way possible.  It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.

agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.

For a live feed they would have to block out peoples names of course.  But yes if they could show the process so everyone could see it that would be awesome.  It would be like the good ole days when you went to olympia and watched some of the draws in person.

[idahohuntr]

Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order 

I think so.  For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in.  I think they could do the same thing with the draw.

They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw.  I said I thought there would be a huge interest.  It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple.  Explaining it is a little tricky.  I offered to help in any way possible.  It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.

agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.

For a live feed they would have to block out peoples names of course.  But yes if they could show the process so everyone could see it that would be awesome.  It would be like the good ole days when you went to olympia and watched some of the draws in person.

Would be fun/interesting...Why do they have to block names?

[Rainier10]

Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order 

I think so.  For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in.  I think they could do the same thing with the draw.

They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw.  I said I thought there would be a huge interest.  It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple.  Explaining it is a little tricky.  I offered to help in any way possible.  It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.

agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.

For a live feed they would have to block out peoples names of course.  But yes if they could show the process so everyone could see it that would be awesome.  It would be like the good ole days when you went to olympia and watched some of the draws in person.

Would be fun/interesting...Why do they have to block names?

Because of the world we live in.  You could get the names I am sure through a request for information form but they don't want to just broadcast every hunters name and hunt choice for the world to see.  I am sure there would be people that don't want the world to know what permit they are putting in for and there are even more people that wouldn't want some whacko radical group to know they are a hunter.  I am very selective with who I tell I am a hunter to.  There is a huge portion of our population that doesn't support hunting.  Just look at the ridicule some get on here when personal information about them gets posted.

[gee_unit360]

Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order 

I think so.  For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in.  I think they could do the same thing with the draw.

They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw.  I said I thought there would be a huge interest.  It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple.  Explaining it is a little tricky.  I offered to help in any way possible.  It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.

agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.

How did you get selected to be a witness?

[gee_unit360]

You have too many points.

I was a witness.

I saw the point totals for the top 20 names out of the hat.  There were 34,049 people in for quality bull, there was an additional 1,584 people that just did ghost points.

There were 464 permits total given out.

#          Points used
1                 5
2                12
3                16
4                12
4                12
6                15
7                14
8                11
9                11
10              10
10              10
12              12
12              12
14              9
15              12
15              12
17              19
18              6
19              12
20              14

The ties for 4,10,12,15 were groups.

The first person out on the "unselected" list had 14 points.  There were a bunch of people in the first 20 unselected that had 6-16 points.  There were three that had 23 or more points.

A bunch of those of course had come out of the hat before the last guy on the selected list but their hunt choice was gone already so they ended up on the unselected list.

It's all really a gamble.

More points get your name in the hat more times but you are up against every method of hunting in that first draw.  All 34,000 with their multiple applications from there go into the same hat.

You could put in for the colockum rifle rut tag, have your name come out of the hat 15th but if the 14 people before you were archery, muzzleloader or just put in for a different first hunt choice than you then you would technically be the first person out of the hat looking for that permit and would get it.

On the other hand you could be the second guy out of the hat and if the first person drawn had the colockum rut rifle tag as there first choice the tag would be gone and if you didn't have a second choice for a hunt you would be out and on the unselected list.

In theory more points should help.  From what I saw in the top 20 max points wasn't the key.

How did you get selected to be a witness?

[Rainier10]

I am a master hunter and hunter education instructor, so pretty involved with WDFW.  I nosed around until I found out who to contact about being a volunteer.  I think you need to be recommended by someone who has been a witness before and then you get the contact info. ( I have already recommended someone for to be a volunteer for next year)  I was then given a name to call at WDFW. I called and let them know I would be interested in being a witness, gave them my information and that was that.  I didn't hear anything back for a while and had actually forgot about it.  Later I got a phone call and had the requirements of being a witness explained to me.  The big one at the time was I had to have a flexible schedule and be available at short notice to drive to Olympia at 8 in the morning for the draw.  The other requirements are you can't tell anyone that you are a witness until after the results are posted, you can't post on social media when the draw is going to happen, after the draw you can't say that the draw is done and you can't say when results are going to be posted.  You have to keep your mouth shut until after the results have posted and they would prefer that you not say anything until after you receive the same email that everyone else receives arrives.  After you receive the email you can say you were a witness and be as detailed as you want about the process.  They want people to understand the process and see how transparent and fair it really is.  I agreed and was called a day or two before the draw and asked if I could be there on June 12th at 8am.

That was last year.  This year was different with Covid.  I called and asked what they were doing and was told that they didn't think they would have witnesses this year.  I got a call on June 9th this year around noon asking if I would be available June 10th at 830 am for a Microsoft Teams meeting to do the draw.  I said yes.  I got an email after that with the meeting invite and one of the recipients of the email had trophyhunt in the address.  I sent him a pm and asked if he had any plans at 830 the next day.  He sent a "yes LOL"  and a "good luck".

The reason for the secrecy about the draw is the servers that results are on.  They are set up for a certain amount of traffic.  More traffic means you need more expensive servers.  Most of the time there is very low traffic on the WDFW site.  They pay for a service to handle that traffic.  When results come out traffic spikes.  The servers can't handle that.

It is just like this site.  When this site was small the servers were small, as the site has grown Dale has had to upgrade to handle the increased traffic.

I have been a witness twice and didn't draw anything.  Both times that I have been a witness one of the witnesses did actually draw a tag.  Last year a guy drew a mountain view quality elk tag and this year a guy drew a skagit bull tag.  Apparently that doesn't normally happen but both times I was there it did.  So I am lucky for someone, just not me.

I am not sure how it worked for the other witnesses but that is how it worked for me.