load development what next

[Mtnwalker]

Always looking to evolve the process, been doing some tinkering on a new load and curious for conversation sake what other's next step(s) would be. Basic outline of where I'm at is this:

162 Eld M, 7 Rem mag, Virgin ADG brass, CCI 250's. Switched things up a bit and did seating depth first this time. Started out with a modest load of 60.0gr H4831SC and ran from .10 to .100 off. Surprisingly in 2 rounds of testing it ended up liking the long jump the best, and did about .3 at .100 off the lands, which works out well because then I can ditch the aftermarket bottom metal and run the factory length mag setup (it's a Tikka  )

My first mistake is I was in a hurry during my last range trip and didn't bring the chrono, so I'm not sure where I'm at for velocity or SD, but I know it's too low, guessing around 2750. So, with very limited range time over the next couple months and components still in short supply, what would you guys who really know your shiz do next? Ladder test for a velocity node? Straight to 3 shot groups in .2 or .3 increments? I haven't had great luck running ladder tests with much consistency in the past, whether over the chrono or at distance, but I haven't spent a ton of time on them either.

Also have RL23 to try as well once I see what the numbers are looking like, but I don't figure I'll get anything really fine tuned until round 2 on the brass.

[TooTallMike]

I would do a low density ladder test.

10 rds at +.2gr increments each from where you are currently at

In my experience I did not notice a change in velocity from virgin brass to 1x fired brass.

You'll be able to identify a velocity node and then you can fine tune your seating depth again from there but it looks like you're doing alright with what you've got now.

[Karl Blanchard]

Scrap the velocity node thing. As seating depth changes so will that flat spot. Do a simple velocity ladder to find pressure, back it off a grain or so from first signs of pressure and then do a seating depth test from there. Don't be afraid to jump a bullet. The internet will have you believing that a bullet has to be close or touching the lands to be accurate but its just not true as you have seen with your original testing.

[BULLBLASTER]

Scrap the velocity node thing. As seating depth changes so will that flat spot. Do a simple velocity ladder to find pressure, back it off a grain or so from first signs of pressure and then do a seating depth test from there. Don't be afraid to jump a bullet. The internet will have you believing that a bullet has to be close or touching the lands to be accurate but its just not true as you have seen with your original testing.

id also reccomend doing it all on once fired brass. Virgin brass can hide pressure that will wreck brass in subsequent firings. I like to go up to either pressure signs or whatever velocity i am after. If looking for pressure i like to drop 75 ish fps from pressure indicators and work seating depth. A grain or so is likely close depending on the chambering.

Ill add that if you want to use the factory bottom metal just start with that and work in the length it allows.

[Karl Blanchard]

As for virgin vs fired brass i will typically concur with Mike. As long as you are properly sizing your brass the only real change will be a tighter es between virgin and fired.

[BULLBLASTER]

As for virgin vs fired brass i will typically concur with Mike. As long as you are properly sizing your brass the only real change will be a tighter es between virgin and fired.

I agree once you have a quality load established.

[Karl Blanchard]

Very good points Bullblaster. A basic load and some trigger time works two fold on a new rifle as well. Forms your brass and speeds up your barrel then you are doing load development at optimal performance.

[Karl Blanchard]

Once you get that brass all shot bring it over and we'll run it through the annealer.

[Mtnwalker]

Scrap the velocity node thing. As seating depth changes so will that flat spot. Do a simple velocity ladder to find pressure, back it off a grain or so from first signs of pressure and then do a seating depth test from there. Don't be afraid to jump a bullet. The internet will have you believing that a bullet has to be close or touching the lands to be accurate but its just not true as you have seen with your original testing.

So basically, do what I usually do. How boring  I did the seating first for a couple reasons. Mostly just to experiment while getting the first firing on the brass, but also I've talked to a few guys who say it helps get their long range ladders cleaned up a bit if the seating is close to begin with. Looks like next step will be a charge ladder, I also picked up some redding incremented shell holders to mess with for FL sizing and shoulder bump so we'll see how those do

[Magnum_Willys]

I like to load faster rather than slower so I find fast zone like Karl said then tweak seating.   Otherwise I may find a great shooting load but won't be happy because there may be a faster node out there I haven't reached yet.  Some of us struggle to accept very accurate slow loads as good enough even when just paper punching - go figure ?

[Crunchy]

I think I did pretty much what you did with my 7mag.  Seating depth test first, but then ran a ladder over the chronograph.  I then tweaked some more with seating depth at the chronograph number that looked flat, and confirmed what I was looking for over the chronograph again. Might have been a waste but I got good trigger time.

Next trip is to verify some drop data, and maybe order a new CDS dial based on my new load.  For those smart guys with verifying drop data.  I have a 200 yard zero.  Do I throw a target up at 300, 400, and 500 and shoot for 200.  Im thinking the 500 yard target will have to be 5 feet tall??  Would that drop give me actual verified BC for the bullet and how do I figure that out from the drop.  Sorry for the mini hijack.

[Karl Blanchard]

I like to load faster rather than slower so I find fast zone like Karl said then tweak seating.   Otherwise I may find a great shooting load but won't be happy because there may be a faster node out there I haven't reached yet.  Some of us struggle to accept very accurate slow loads as good enough even when just paper punching - go figure ?

I just don't see a reason to settle for "slow". If I can't operate at peak performance I'm gonna change powders until I find the one that offers me the most performance. Sometimes its the bullet as well. 190 ABLR come to mind. I tried that thing with every possible combination in my first wsm barrel (a barrel that would shoot anything in the .3's) and the only accuracy I could find was at 2,750. I could do that with a 30-06  switched to the 185 berger and shot them at a comfortable 3100.

Only time I could see accepting "slow" with a load would be times like this where component availability is a real issue. A guy couldn't switch powders even if he wanted to.

[Mtnwalker]

I like to load faster rather than slower so I find fast zone like Karl said then tweak seating.   Otherwise I may find a great shooting load but won't be happy because there may be a faster node out there I haven't reached yet.  Some of us struggle to accept very accurate slow loads as good enough even when just paper punching - go figure ?

I just don't see a reason to settle for "slow". If I can't operate at peak performance I'm gonna change powders until I find the one that offers me the most performance. Sometimes its the bullet as well. 190 ABLR come to mind. I tried that thing with every possible combination in my first wsm barrel (a barrel that would shoot anything in the .3's) and the only accuracy I could find was at 2,750. I could do that with a 30-06  switched to the 185 berger and shot them at a comfortable 3100.

Only time I could see accepting "slow" with a load would be times like this where component availability is a real issue. A guy couldn't switch powders even if he wanted to.

What if your gun is already jumpy cause you don't have a brake and you don't want any more recoil?  I don't need to wring every ounce out of this load but I definitely need about 200 fps more than it's doing right now

[hogslayer]

I had a 7 Rem mag.  The upper node with those 162-168 grain bullets was 2950 ish.   Should be able to reach that pretty easy.  RL 23 and H4831SC are identical in charge weights so that wouldn't be hard to switch over.  2750 would be way to slow.   With  a belted mag, your second firing will be different.  Non belted i usually don't see any issue if chamber is head spaced correctly.  Belted mags head space off the belt on first firing which can move the shoulder .020 forward on first firing.

[Karl Blanchard]

Yeah magnum tikka's are kinda awful to shoot  brake or swap out the stock. Or trade it off for a 7/08.






Or don't redline your load that way it won't karate chop you in the shoulder every trigger pull 

[jrebel]

I'm not a speed guy by any means and have often wondered why people continue to try and squeeze an extra 100 fps out of a load.  I also don't like to load to pressure signs and back off a little due to the fact that not all powders are temp stable.  I'm not saying that I'm afraid of speed and pressure, just not one to always push the envelope. 

My process (and I can usually find a Sub MOA load in under 30 rounds) is to find a velocity node first.  I will shoot from the low end of the recommended powder charge to the high end in .2 or .3 grain increments depending on how large the spread is (usually 8-12 rounds).  Quite often their will be two flat nodes.....and I usually pick the faster node unless the slower node has a wider powder range (if that makes sense).  My starting seating depth is usually the recommended OACL.  I pick the middle of the node and then play with seating depth.  I now measure off the ogive and load toward my jam spot (spot there the bullet will jam into the lands).  I never load to the jam and always load a minimum of 0.003 off the jam.  This assures I will not jam a bullet in the lands and potentially pull it from the brass dumping powder everywhere and obstructing my barrel in a hunting situation. 

I have had great luck loading this way.  The last rifle I used this method on shot .88 5 shot group at 300 yards.  The below youtube video explains it better than I can. 

[BULLBLASTER]

Yeah tikka's are awful 

Fixed it for you....   

[Karl Blanchard]

Yeah tikka's are awful 

Fixed it for you....   

[Mtnwalker]

I think I did pretty much what you did with my 7mag.  Seating depth test first, but then ran a ladder over the chronograph.  I then tweaked some more with seating depth at the chronograph number that looked flat, and confirmed what I was looking for over the chronograph again. Might have been a waste but I got good trigger time.

Next trip is to verify some drop data, and maybe order a new CDS dial based on my new load.  For those smart guys with verifying drop data.  I have a 200 yard zero.  Do I throw a target up at 300, 400, and 500 and shoot for 200.  Im thinking the 500 yard target will have to be 5 feet tall??  Would that drop give me actual verified BC for the bullet and how do I figure that out from the drop.  Sorry for the mini hijack.

For a CDS I would think you'd want to shoot it at each distance and go with what your dial says vs measuring the drop and doing the math? If your scope isn't dialing exactly MOA but is still repeatable at each distance, wouldn't the CDS coincide with the clicks anyways? If you get what I'm trying to say  I'm having difficulty englishing

[Mtnwalker]

Yeah tikka's are awful 

Fixed it for you....   

Well I bought it years ago to build off the action but the darn thing just keeps making these tiny little groups with all kinds of different bullets... its a superlite in an Altitude stock so a wee bit jumpy

[hunter399]

My loads are...........
Always work your way up.

H1000/70 grains/160 grain
H4831/65 grains/160 grain
Hybrid100/63 grains/160 grain

I've also have reloaded 162 grain sst.
162 grain sst / over the h1000 took down the deer in my avatar last year.

The h1000 was like almost 3100 MV
The hybrid100 was like 2975 MV with 62.5 gr
H4831 I haven't cronograph that load yet.

I have goals I set ,like a certain speed ,then play with seating depth,and try to get some degree of accuracy,within those goals. Sometimes it works out ,Sometimes it dont.
The fun of reloading I guess ,everybody does it different,and that's what makes there loads "special".

[Crunchy]

I think I did pretty much what you did with my 7mag.  Seating depth test first, but then ran a ladder over the chronograph.  I then tweaked some more with seating depth at the chronograph number that looked flat, and confirmed what I was looking for over the chronograph again. Might have been a waste but I got good trigger time.

Next trip is to verify some drop data, and maybe order a new CDS dial based on my new load.  For those smart guys with verifying drop data.  I have a 200 yard zero.  Do I throw a target up at 300, 400, and 500 and shoot for 200.  Im thinking the 500 yard target will have to be 5 feet tall??  Would that drop give me actual verified BC for the bullet and how do I figure that out from the drop.  Sorry for the mini hijack.

For a CDS I would think you'd want to shoot it at each distance and go with what your dial says vs measuring the drop and doing the math? If your scope isn't dialing exactly MOA but is still repeatable at each distance, wouldn't the CDS coincide with the clicks anyways? If you get what I'm trying to say  I'm having difficulty englishing

The dial is for a different load and about 80-100 fps faster

[BULLBLASTER]

I think I did pretty much what you did with my 7mag.  Seating depth test first, but then ran a ladder over the chronograph.  I then tweaked some more with seating depth at the chronograph number that looked flat, and confirmed what I was looking for over the chronograph again. Might have been a waste but I got good trigger time.

Next trip is to verify some drop data, and maybe order a new CDS dial based on my new load.  For those smart guys with verifying drop data.  I have a 200 yard zero.  Do I throw a target up at 300, 400, and 500 and shoot for 200.  Im thinking the 500 yard target will have to be 5 feet tall??  Would that drop give me actual verified BC for the bullet and how do I figure that out from the drop.  Sorry for the mini hijack.

For a CDS I would think you'd want to shoot it at each distance and go with what your dial says vs measuring the drop and doing the math? If your scope isn't dialing exactly MOA but is still repeatable at each distance, wouldn't the CDS coincide with the clicks anyways? If you get what I'm trying to say  I'm having difficulty englishing

The dial is for a different load and about 80-100 fps faster

I think mtnwalker meant to dial the elevation and shoot at each range so you know the actual amount of correction needed and use that data for ordering your new dial.

[Magnum_Willys]

Next trip is to verify some drop data, and maybe order a new CDS dial based on my new load.  For those smart guys with verifying drop data.  I have a 200 yard zero.  Do I throw a target up at 300, 400, and 500 and shoot for 200.  Im thinking the 500 yard target will have to be 5 feet tall??  Would that drop give me actual verified BC for the bullet and how do I figure that out from the drop.  Sorry for the mini hijack.

Zero at 200 yrds and set turret to zero.   Adjust turret so it hits bullseye at 300 and write down number on dial.  Repeat for 400, 500, etc.

 Plug those numbers into an app and print your dial chart to use with existing turret, or use those numbers to order a CDS turret. 

[Mtnwalker]

Next trip is to verify some drop data, and maybe order a new CDS dial based on my new load.  For those smart guys with verifying drop data.  I have a 200 yard zero.  Do I throw a target up at 300, 400, and 500 and shoot for 200.  Im thinking the 500 yard target will have to be 5 feet tall??  Would that drop give me actual verified BC for the bullet and how do I figure that out from the drop.  Sorry for the mini hijack.

Zero at 200 yrds and set turret to zero.   Adjust turret so it hits bullseye at 300 and write down number on dial.  Repeat for 400, 500, etc.

 Plug those numbers into an app and print your dial chart to use with existing turret, or use those numbers to order a CDS turret.

  and put your regular dial back on to do that if you still have it

[Miles]

Don’t over complicate things.   When you’re talking 5’ targets, you’re doing just that... 

[TooTallMike]

I think I did pretty much what you did with my 7mag.  Seating depth test first, but then ran a ladder over the chronograph.  I then tweaked some more with seating depth at the chronograph number that looked flat, and confirmed what I was looking for over the chronograph again. Might have been a waste but I got good trigger time.

Next trip is to verify some drop data, and maybe order a new CDS dial based on my new load.  For those smart guys with verifying drop data.  I have a 200 yard zero.  Do I throw a target up at 300, 400, and 500 and shoot for 200.  Im thinking the 500 yard target will have to be 5 feet tall??  Would that drop give me actual verified BC for the bullet and how do I figure that out from the drop.  Sorry for the mini hijack.

For a CDS I would think you'd want to shoot it at each distance and go with what your dial says vs measuring the drop and doing the math? If your scope isn't dialing exactly MOA but is still repeatable at each distance, wouldn't the CDS coincide with the clicks anyways? If you get what I'm trying to say  I'm having difficulty englishing

Turretlabels.com

That's where you can create a free account and plug in all your data and print a custom label on vinyl sticker paper then I trim and wrap it around my turret. Saves you the money of ordering a cds and I like to diy as much as I can

Here's an example of one I made for my 308 shooting 165gr Lazers

[jasnt]

This is basically my load development.  Low load seating depth, ladder over chrono, fine tune seating depth.  Tons of folks on the web have scoffed at this technique.  Maybe I’m just lucky but it’s worked for me over and over and over.   I’m not the guy concerned with 2” groups at 500.  Most folks don’t even believe their gun is capable of the distances I shoot.  With my shooting Es is king! And it works pretty good at 500 too.  Jmo

[Magnum_Willys]

I tried Jasnt’s method last time and got this group at 1016 yards.   Not bad for an 11 lb rifle delivering well over 2000 ft lbs.