True spike an spike rule

[jason stevens]

How many people disagree with these rules on the Eastside. I'm curious because I feel like after a few years of 3 or 4point rules how the effect on the herd would be. I may be wrong but do others think that if they switched it to 3 point min the herd would do better. In my opinion I feel like we are killing off the genes with spikes an letting the big boys die of old age. Someone tell me I'm wrong an tell me why. Today I got sent a picture from a buddy of 6 1x2 an 46 cows. I saw a big bull last year that could barley walk not sure if he was sick or just old. Generally in the area I hunt ill see about 7 to 10 bulls over 5 points but zero true spikes. Just asking if I'm thinking wrong or is there a better way to manage the herds. Thanks for your opinions.

[Bone collector 13]

Their not managing for quality, or hunter success, their management is for escapement because other user groups and predators run rampant

[hunter399]

I'm no elk expert that for sure.
But one thing I do know is ,and this apply to deer,elk,all game animals really.

If you want the herd to grow its all about the cows or females.

As long as there is enough bulls to breed all the cows than the herd grows.
If you think about genes as long as there are cows in the herd that carry that old bulls genes ,then his genes live on.

That's why sometimes it's so important to protect cow,does,females, but when you give out way to many permits or OTC cow tags,poaching,ect,ect, it is possible to erase or completely take out certain genes through female harvest.
Just like humans ,whether you have a son or daughter ,your genes are passed on . They may be more prominent from father to son,but make no mistake your genes are passed on son or daughter makes no difference.

[johnbmyersii]

It's all about money. If the eastside was all open for any bull or 3pt min, there wouldnt be many elk left and they wouldnt make nearly as much money. Special big bull permits make the state hundreds of thousands of dollars every year. Many spikes dont survive the winter anyways and success rate is so low that it doesnt matter if most of them get killed off. Only a few need to make it through to grow big to continue repopulating. At the end of the day, WDFW is out to make money any way they can.

[jason stevens]

Great responses so far thank you. What if we had a say (lol will never happen) an we went no harvesting of cows an straight to a 4 point rule for a minimum of at least 5 years. What do you think would happen?

[jason stevens]

I would truly like to see Karl Blanchard chime in on this.

[HunterStrait]

I personally like the spike only rule and I think it works great in protecting mature breeding bulls. As long as they keep allowing a decent amount of big bull permits.

I disagree with the true spike rule though, and i think all spike only rules should just be switched to being "non-branching elk" to also include forking 2x2 elk.

[johnbmyersii]

Great responses so far thank you. What if we had a say (lol will never happen) an we went no harvesting of cows an straight to a 4 point rule for a minimum of at least 5 years. What do you think would happen?

It would be an absolute slaughter the likes we've never seen in this generation. We'd probably also never see a recovery and have the absolute tanks we have running around these days. It would be fun if they did it and I'd definitely participate but it'd ruin our trophy units

[johnbmyersii]

I disagree with the true spike rule though, and i think all spike only rules should just be switched to being "non-branching elk" to also include forking 2x2 elk.

 

[nwwanderer]

The heredity of antlers is a low % but they have been doing it for a long time, the spike is truly becoming the unicorn.  Selection against spikes makes for fewer and fewer in a population.

[jason stevens]

So when you look at the harvest rates per gmu on the west side at a 3 point minimum they go into the 100s versus 10 or 15 on the east side. They also continue on the west side year buy year. So what I'm hearing so far is that the east side would be a slaughter at a 3 point min. I disagree with that an again only in my opinion. I think if they said no cows allowed to be harvested within 5 years an going to a 3 point minimum  the herd would grow alot.  Now we all know predators an winter kills are a thing but don't you think the numbers would increase.

[HillHound]

I disagree with the rule 100%. When other basically unregulated predators and a certain user group has free reign on the big bulls we are not saving anything. It’s basically Would be the same if I owned 2 acres of property and wanted to save the bucks to grow to maturity. They would obviously be shot on the neighbors property. We want to save these big bulls for breeding or for maybe when we draw a tag in 30 years but the other group  can hunt them year round comes and kills them anyways. So Yep it’s totally about them making money and keep in the other user group happy

[Mtnwalker]

It's about high $$ and low harvest. Sell tags to everybody yet not be a significant drain on the resource. And with the branch antlered tags cut down to what they are now, it's a joke. What I'd really like to know is why we have units on the east side with 11 total branched bull tags yet 75 cow tags...

[jason stevens]

We spend thousands of dollars for what we love to do. Im only asking these questions because I'm curious of what other hunters an huntress think. I'd love to hunt elk an be productive in the harvest but spike only in 30 years of hunting I've gotten 1. I will always go every year because it's a passion but what if I went west an paid the fees to hunt and chased hoof rot bulls.  I know its all about the money in our state but good God if they actually listened to us an gave us a say they could still make money. My personal opinion is everything deer an elk included should be 3 point or better an no females allowed to be harvested except for maybe a couple for youth. All of the opportunities would increase.  An bring back baiting an hounds for predators.

[hunter399]

It's about high $$ and low harvest. Sell tags to everybody yet not be a significant drain on the resource. And with the branch antlered tags cut down to what they are now, it's a joke.

Ding Ding Ding ,BINGO
You just described the whole permit system ,except for female harvest ,cause that does cause a drain on the resource.
But yes big bingo ,that's why in the future WDFW will try to put the whole state on the permit system and due away with OTC anything .Cause everybody will buy in at a chance of drawing yet if they harvest is of no concern.

Think of the spike elk restrictions as a permit drawing.
Your just buying a tag at a chance ,that's all.
Same could be said of the 4pt WT in NE WA a few years ago.
At least with that restriction ,was buying into a chance of a mature deer.
So kinda the same ,but different.

[Stein]

I agree it is likely financially driven.  It's pretty much the least you can allow and still say you can shoot bulls on a general tag.  Once you sell the general tag, many guys will throw a few bucks into the special draws as well.  If you can't hunt a bull on a general tag, my guess is a bunch of people wouldn't buy a tag and the state would lose the general tag revenue plus any special permit revenue for those people.

Same thing happens with permits, they get cut quickly, but once they get to only one or two permits they tend to stay there.  Is one or two tags the right number from a biological perspective or does it have more to do with selling chances at a draw?

There doesn't seem to be much of a management strategy and certainly no recovery strategy other that cut permits and limit the general hunting as much as possible without closing it.  When I look through the prospects every year, it seems there is a bunch of cut and paste from prior years and best case you have some survey data although that is getting to be less and less.

I think they know they can't go to a 3 or 4 pt rule as the harvest would go up substantially and they can't go to permit only because they would likely see the pitchforks come out as well as a huge budget hit.  Which one is the driving factor is up to anyone's guess as WDFW certainly won't discuss it in any meaningful way.

[HUNT JR]

It would be a slaughter, the first few years there would be some awesome bulls killed. I think the herd numbers might not change a ton if we don't kill any cows. What would happen would be a lot like Idaho where we would lose our top end quality and the average age of the bulls in the herd would drop substantially.

[jason stevens]

Thanks for all the responses I appreciate all of you. I wish there was more we could do for our opportunities an protection of the herd an management of our game.

[jeffro]

What about a 5 point minimum, both sides, and no one, absolutely no one hunts until after the rut?

[85yota]

Interesting topic..my opinion its about the money and they really are good tags to draw of that ever happens to you.. what i don't understand is why true spikes..last year my buddies found 2 left for dead and an arrogant  game warden chastising  people for hunting true spikes because  so many non trues get shot.. I hunt Westside  and think 3 point works there but I agree it would  be a slaughter  on the east..what i wonder is if we can get some new ideas in there.. like every 5 years you get a 5 point min tag.. even double the price.. or a few years do 3 point min to save spike genetics  and than switch back..in reality predators and the "other" group won't allow this to happen imop

[85yota]

And really what actually caused the switch to go spikes..I hear the stories of killing bulls back in the day usually small 3s  but still what went down with the switch and did we as hunters approve of it?

[avidnwoutdoorsman]

I'm no elk expert that for sure.
But one thing I do know is ,and this apply to deer,elk,all game animals really.

If you want the herd to grow its all about the cows or females.

As long as there is enough bulls to breed all the cows than the herd grows.
If you think about genes as long as there are cows in the herd that carry that old bulls genes ,then his genes live on.

That's why sometimes it's so important to protect cow,does,females, but when you give out way to many permits or OTC cow tags,poaching,ect,ect, it is possible to erase or completely take out certain genes through female harvest.
Just like humans ,whether you have a son or daughter ,your genes are passed on . They may be more prominent from father to son,but make no mistake your genes are passed on son or daughter makes no difference.

Correct about the cows and females. A little off the mark on genes. Genes dont make monsters and play almost nothing into the size of a mature bull. What matters is a fat momma. A stud bull breeds a cow who has a hard winter and she will birth a bull with "stud genes" that wont grow to its stud potential due to momma not being fat while in utero. Alternatively, you have an average bull breed a cow who has a great winter and she will birth a future stud bull.

Genes mean almost nothing for producing big mature ungulates. Having a fat mama means everything. 

[jason stevens]

All valid points keep them coming.

[str8meat]

I sat at a table at a non profit fund raising banquet with a director that sets the season’s and bag limits. He informed me that for every 1 elk in Washington state there is 1.3 elk hunters. We the state have to set elk hunters up for failure. But we need the money from license sales. We all can agree or disagree on the management of the elk herd. All of us have our own ideas, killing the young bulls is foolish on the east side and west side shoot mature bulls. Is the glass getting full or empty? Maybe a draw system for any elk and any antler less elk is an option. Don’t draw don’t hunt, many don’t like it but a 900 lb steer is dang near the same price of gas, food etc of a week of elk hunting. Plus the steer is a guarantee kill. Just thoughts. In my opinion the depart couldn’t manage a sack race to the schmit house.

[X-Force]

If we went to anything other than spike/true spike on the east cascade units/blue mountains it would have to be permit only… terrain/elk numbers/survival rate/number of hunters…

I wouldn’t be apposed to state wide permit elk, but I’m 35. It may be a harder pill to swallow at 50 or 65.

[mburrows]

Statewide permit only system is my vote for WA elk, similar to how Colorado does it for mule deer. State doesn’t lose money (least of my concerns the way WA politicians manage the budget) but OTC spike hunting is stupid.

[Dan-o]

I'm gonna say the spike only thing is working.

Personally, I hate only being able to hunt spikes, but I'm old enough to remember when you'd go to the big feeding station and maybe see a couple gangly raghorns.    But you wouldn't see any real brusier bulls.

We didn't have any bull tags this year, but we called in some absolute stud bulls.

It wouldn't take long to wipe them out.

Also, not that many years ago there were a ton of cow tags on the east side.  That wasn't an accident.  The herd was above their desired carrying capacity.    You can argue what the carrying capacity should be, but unless you're actually working with the farmers and paying the claims and looking at the quality of graze from an educated standpoint.....  Well, you're just guessing.

I don't see any alternative to what's going on.   Going to 3-point min on the east side would kill a LOT of bulls for a couple years, but then we'd be back to almost no big bulls.    Personally, I like having the big bulls out there, even if I can only draw a tag every few million years (or at least that's how it feels.)

[cooltimber]

I'm gonna say the spike only thing is working.

Personally, I hate only being able to hunt spikes, but I'm old enough to remember when you'd go to the big feeding station and maybe see a couple gangly raghorns.    But you wouldn't see any real brusier bulls.

We didn't have any bull tags this year, but we called in some absolute stud bulls.

It wouldn't take long to wipe them out.

Also, not that many years ago there were a ton of cow tags on the east side.  That wasn't an accident.  The herd was above their desired carrying capacity.    You can argue what the carrying capacity should be, but unless you're actually working with the farmers and paying the claims and looking at the quality of graze from an educated standpoint.....  Well, you're just guessing.

I don't see any alternative to what's going on.   Going to 3-point min on the east side would kill a LOT of bulls for a couple years, but then we'd be back to almost no big bulls.    Personally, I like having the big bulls out there, even if I can only draw a tag every few million years (or at least that's how it feels.)

Absolutely

[scoutdog346]

Wdfw doesn't make that much money from hunting tags and license.  How do u know its about money. 

It's all about money. If the eastside was all open for any bull or 3pt min, there wouldnt be many elk left and they wouldnt make nearly as much money. Special big bull permits make the state hundreds of thousands of dollars every year. Many spikes dont survive the winter anyways and success rate is so low that it doesnt matter if most of them get killed off. Only a few need to make it through to grow big to continue repopulating. At the end of the day, WDFW is out to make money any way they can.

[Stein]

This is a few years old, but coming straight from the WDFW, it summarizes the issue:

Nearly one quarter of WDFW’s operating budget comes from fishing and hunting license sale revenues. As state General Fund support to the department declines, user fees are more important than ever in helping to avert even deeper cuts to services

Since then, we have seen new fees, maybe the best example is the two pole endorsement.  WDFW initiated that when there was a budget crisis, arguably they could have created that opportunity years ago, or could have made it free.  Same is true in hunting, additional fees and "opportunities" are created when money is needed.  "Opportunities" tend to arrive during hard budget years and always have a fee associated, either new or increased.

Fishing, hunting, same deal.

[bobdog86]

We spend thousands of dollars for what we love to do. Im only asking these questions because I'm curious of what other hunters an huntress think. I'd love to hunt elk an be productive in the harvest but spike only in 30 years of hunting I've gotten 1. I will always go every year because it's a passion but what if I went west an paid the fees to hunt and chased hoof rot bulls.  I know its all about the money in our state but good God if they actually listened to us an gave us a say they could still make money. My personal opinion is everything deer an elk included should be 3 point or better an no females allowed to be harvested except for maybe a couple for youth. All of the opportunities would increase.  An bring back baiting an hounds for predators.

I know one user group that would absolutely love your recommendations….especially when they operate under a separate set of rules. The 3 or 4 point rule in the blues would send it back to the days of minimal success rates (worse than now)……it would do more harm than good.both for the state and the hunter

[dreamingbig]

Great responses so far thank you. What if we had a say (lol will never happen) an we went no harvesting of cows an straight to a 4 point rule for a minimum of at least 5 years. What do you think would happen?

You couldn’t offer 4 point minimum OTC.  There wouldn’t be any bulls left in that scenario either.  It would have to be draw only.


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[Stein]

Great responses so far thank you. What if we had a say (lol will never happen) an we went no harvesting of cows an straight to a 4 point rule for a minimum of at least 5 years. What do you think would happen?

You couldn’t offer 4 point minimum OTC.  There wouldn’t be any bulls left in that scenario either.  It would have to be draw only.


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The eastern units are draw for mature bulls now.  What you propose would essentially be to increase the permit tags from whatever few they are today to unlimited.  Even the states with OTC bull tags and much healthier herds have some control over bulls in at least some areas.  MT's general is usually brow tine or better in the general units with the rest of the units draw only.  I can't think of anyplace where you can buy an OTC tag for mature bulls with no unit restrictions.

The increase in pressure on those bulls would be hard to overestimate.  Guys like me that bailed on elk in this state would be back in the game and you would likely even see a noticeable uptick in nonresident hunters.

[Mfowl]

I'd like to see no cow hunting draw or OTC for 3 years but increase the amount of draw bull tags across the board to keep people in it. Also keep spike OTC opps w/no true spike restriction for those who want to hunt, draw or not. If cow/herd numbers are rebounding bring back some draw opps for cows and taper back the bull tags (if neccessary.)

[time2hunt]

For any of you out in the colockum this last week should understand why it’s true spike !!! With the number of people and people that own UTVs there is no way in hell there would be any carry over. I saw on legal spike in the week I was out there and probably 20-25 2x1 that would of been slaughtered. I agree with Dan-O the days when it was a open free for all you were lucky to see a 6 point bull. I’ve been lucky enough to have draw several bull tags over the years and drew one of the first permits in 96 the biggest bull we found was barely a 300 inch 6 point.


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[royalhntr]

Its like everyone spent their stimulus checks on atvs and utvs. I have never seen so many out there cruising around.

[full choke]

Sounds like utv’s and atv’s should be limited. Not elk hunters.

[millerwheeler]

Sounds like utv’s and atv’s should be limited. Not elk hunters.

 How do you figure there not every single outdoor hobby is limited in some shape or form and every single user group pays in one way or the other , more people have switch to utvs for simple fact you See how much a keep is these days ? Just a different type of hunting , can’t put one hunter against another that’s why we are losing the. Battle here . Road hunters  can’t say it’s my thing  but EVERY SINGLE HUNTER HAS DONE IT!  Eyes on the road never on the woods when your driving to your spot? Never drive just a little slower just in case , it’s just different strokes for different folks . Management is the real issue of the herds and of predators  period most people on here make zero effort for predators , more hunters than animals well then we gotta work towards  compromise for the future , our draws are a money grab and seriously declining odds make it hard for any of us to be happy , but predators  , all user groups working too same goal , respecting each user in the hunting community . I’m ranting now. But let’s try and all see there are many issues at hand not just the almighty east side elk

[dreamingbig]

The game department is making no attempt to manage predators.  We can’t shoot enough lions (can’t hunt them with any efficiency) and bears to make a dent.  Add in wolves and year around pressure from certain user groups and it really gets dismal.  I don’t see herd growth in our future so you have to limit opportunities and that means no more OTC spikes.  They also need to address non-resident and limit the amount of tags they can draw like every other western state does.  The list goes on further…


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[hunter399]

Sounds like utv’s and atv’s should be limited. Not elk hunters.

 How do you figure there not every single outdoor hobby is limited in some shape or form and every single user group pays in one way or the other , more people have switch to utvs for simple fact you See how much a keep is these days ? Just a different type of hunting , can’t put one hunter against another that’s why we are losing the. Battle here . Road hunters  can’t say it’s my thing  but EVERY SINGLE HUNTER HAS DONE IT!  Eyes on the road never on the woods when your driving to your spot? Never drive just a little slower just in case , it’s just different strokes for different folks . Management is the real issue of the herds and of predators  period most people on here make zero effort for predators , more hunters than animals well then we gotta work towards  compromise for the future , our draws are a money grab and seriously declining odds make it hard for any of us to be happy , but predators  , all user groups working too same goal , respecting each user in the hunting community . I’m ranting now. But let’s try and all see there are many issues at hand not just the almighty east side elk

I'm gonna rant a little myself.......
I'll tell ya I agree with some of what you say.
As far as ATV,SXS,motorized bicycle,motor bike , Its out of hand man. I believe everything has a place and all that.
Mostly talking about the east side of the state and co-operative road closer agreements between timber company's and WDFW. This going around gates,running 100 miles of road a day. On private timber land ,that they are nice enough to give free walk access to thousands of acres.
It's out of control,it's disrespectful, and offenders should be charged with tresspassing charges. Your only allowed to be there if you follow the rules. Can't follow the rules,get charge with criminal trespass. I do feel for the guy that may down something and may not be able to pack it out. And sneaks in to get his kill out quickly. But this is not the case 9/10 times.
ENFORCEMENT!!!!!!! On all regulations right now is a HUGE problem.
Predators contribute to this problem as well.
You can kill every predator to extinction right now,and we would still have the same problem.
It's like the wild west out there right now. I believe there is huge problems on the regulations/enforcement home front that need addressed before we can point the finger at predators.
I'm sorry but the predator excuses are getting old ,when some of the stuff I see is just re-donk-uless.