Cougars vs. Blue Tongue....what is the bigger problem??

[jrebel]

With all the blue tongue conversations, I thought I would show what I think is the bigger problem.  Here are a few pictures in just the last few weeks.  I have decided to keep all the cougar pictures from this point on and at some point send them to WDFW as a WTF??  This is a way bigger problem than blue tongue will ever be and WDFW has no answer / solution.  Makes me sick. 

Feel free to add cougar pics with general location to this post.  All of my pictures are from 121. 

Hope these post upright.  I will have multiple pages as I can only post two at a time. 

[jrebel]

two more

[Special T]

High predator levels will prevent a recovery. Several areas are now in the throat of a predator pit.

[jrebel]

A couple more

[jrebel]

Some older pictures. 

[jrebel]

More pics

[shmacker]

Also in 121, it’s a bad photo but on my computer you could make out a third cat in the back.

[jrebel]

How about some babies. 

[jrebel]

Another lone baby.....really late too.

Last picture is clearly bait.....Here kitty, kitty, kitty.   

[hunter399]

1/3 cougar,1/3 poachers,1/6 *censored* WDFW and wolves,1/6 bluetongue
With that said it's just personal opinion,there all problems,amount of problem is up to you to decide for your area.
But I might of been seeing things,don't really know for sure,
I was driving through chewlah today past the hunter check station and I thought I seen a dead cougar hanging off of someone's tailgate .
That would be good if it was.

But since it's bluetongue vs cougar.......
This year I would say bluetongue .......
Long run or overall all years combined cougar are a year round killer year after year.

[jrebel]

1/3 cougar,1/3 poachers,1/6 *censored* WDFW and wolves,1/6 bluetongue
With that said it's just personal opinion,there all problems,amount of problem is up to you to decide for your area.
But I might of been seeing things,don't really know for sure,
I was driving through chewlah today past the hunter check station and I thought I seen a dead cougar hanging off of someone's tailgate .
That would be good if it was.

But since it's bluetongue vs cougar.......
This year I would say bluetongue .......
Long run or overall all years combined cougar are a year round killer year after year.

Yes, Cougars kill year around 365 days a year.  There is no effective way to kill them....well hounds....but that is illegal. 

Closest I have been to killing one was this week when we heard one vocalizing.  It had to be within 100 yards and I still couldn't find it.  The NE corner is super thick with brush so you can be close and never see them. 

[Seabass]

There’s no doubt that we have too many cats but they don’t do what blue tongue, can and has done, in a month of a single year. If cats did that we would have run out of deer long ago.

Yes, cats kill year round but they don’t kill at near the rate that blue tongue does.  EHD can and has killed 25-30% of a herd in the affected area in a single season….cats don’t do that.

I get what you’re saying and I agree that we should be doing something about it but cat’s aren’t worse than EHD.

[Seabass]

I also hunt 121 exclusively. I have had cats on camera as long as I’ve used cameras (20 years).I have been hunting the same 10-15 miles since 1997. I have seen good years and bad years during that time. Cats have been a constant.

In 2014 I killed a cat from my tree stand. She came in shortly after I missed killing my target buck.
Last year I put a buddy in that same stand and he missed a big Tom…killed a great buck the next day. There were a ton of good bucks alive and on camera at the end of last season…as of yesterday I only have 1 of them on camera this year… same spots.

[jrebel]

There’s no doubt that we have too many cats but they don’t do what blue tongue, can and has done, in a month of a single year. If cats did that we would have run out of deer long ago.

Yes, cats kill year round but they don’t kill at near the rate that blue tongue does.  EHD can and has killed 25-30% of a herd in the affected area in a single season….cats don’t do that.

I get what you’re saying and I agree that we should be doing something about it but cat’s aren’t worse than EHD.

I don't doubt that in a certain time period (usually 3-4 months) blue tongue kills more animals.  Blue tongue only occurs once every 7-10 years.  Cats in that 7-10 year period have to kill equally as many, or more than a single incident of blue tongue.  I remember hunting 121 back in the 80's and seeing hundreds of deer daily (mostly farm fields).  Now in those same fields, your lucky to see 10-20.....this is not because of blue tongue.  This is because of predators. 

To prove my point....  The Palouse has the same, if not worse blue tongue events.  I have lived through two of them and know many farmers that have seen more.  The heard will be devastated after a bad blue tongue event.   3 years later the heard is back to normal numbers, why is the NE corner not rebounding.  I would argue predators.  The Palouse doesn't have the same amount of predators....thus the deer can rebound from a bad blue tongue event. 

What am I missing? 

 

[vandeman17]

I had a cat chasing a doe and fan this past weekend next to my stand. Heard a doe blowing to my left and a few minutes late, a yearling was hauling tail behind me with the doe right behind. About a minute later I looked down to my left and the cat was sitting there staring at me. With the position of my stand and the tree I was up against, I didn't have a shot.

I agree with Johhny that its the consistency of kills that a cougar and other predators make that make them the bigger problem over to whitetail herds than sporadic blue tongue outbreaks.

[Stein]

They both kill lots of animals, doesn't much matter which one gets crowned the winner as nothing is being done about either.  When the number of deer gets too small to feed all the cats, the cats will crash and then both will recover to whatever number can survive together.

No real ideas on blue tongue and no real way to hunt cats with any level of effectiveness legally. 

WDFW's hands are pretty much tied on the latter when the no dog hunting bill passed.  Their moment to influence the outcome was before the vote, not much to do now.  Hopefully they put up more of a fight with spring bear because it's only the next domino to tip and there aren't that many left.

[jrebel]

They could allow year around cat hunting with no quota.  They could allow us to bait cats.  They could allow us to trap cats.  They could allow us to hunt cougars at night. 

They can do a lot of things, but their biologist continue to blow smoke and say our state does not have a cat problem.  I have been told that our state has anywhere from 1500 ish cats / cougars.  This is complete BS and they know it. 

[hunter399]

They could allow year around cat hunting with no quota.  They could allow us to bait cats.  They could allow us to trap cats.  They could allow us to hunt cougars at night. 

They can do a lot of things, but their biologist continue to blow smoke and say our state does not have a cat problem.  I have been told that our state has anywhere from 1500 ish cats / cougars.  This is complete BS and they know it.

I Agree there Alot of maybe,and what if,shouldn't,could of.
You got WDFW,Commission,and Alot of BS that goes with that feed sack of rats.
Some added predator management with a touch more enforcement for poaching would go a long ways in improving deer herds.
Not that the enforcement does a bad job,they do great with the cards there delt. I think some areas of Washington get the short end for the money the state makes off the resources.

[Seabass]

@jrebel

121 was on a serious comeback until this last round of EHD!

My perspective is only from a 10-15 mile stretch of ground in 121. I'm not all over the unit. However, I have spent almost 25 years in that exact same stretch and I have killed a lot of mature bucks during that time. I only hunt public ground which get's absolutely POUNDED by gun hunter's every year. I run anywhere from 8-10 cameras in that stretch. In my opinion, and data backed up by my trail camera's, 121 has been pretty darn good for many of the last 25 years despite all the cats. The exception being those few years following EHD. Even after EHD I have been able to find a couple old deer worth hunting...until this year. I started using trail camera's in 2003, back when you had to get the film developed. This (2021) is the first year that I have ever started a season without a single big buck to hunt. I still have a few more days until the opener on the 25th...

It was tough after the 2009 winter and it wasn't great from 2015-2019 (2015 was the last bout of EHD) but I was still getting some great bucks on film and was killing some of them too. In 2012,13 and 14 I had a serious problem deciding which buck to hunt...multiple big bucks at most of cameras. I killed mature bucks in everyone of those years.

In the area I hunt we were getting close to being back there again. When I pulled my stands and cams on December 15th last year there were 12-13 bucks still alive that were all over 3 1/2 years old...that doesn't include the 2 my buddy and I killed. Most of them were 120-140" bucks and 1 was big one. As of my last camera check (earlier this week) only 1 of those bucks made it and he's not a buck I would shoot.

Cat's didn't do that.

[Seabass]

I will say, of the 2 problems, EHD is 100% out of our control. We can't do much to the cats either but at least you can kill one if you see it. In 2014, I killed a cat from my stand and last year my partner missed one. I have never been presented a shot at EHD

[hunter399]

@jrebel

121 was on a serious comeback until this last round of EHD!

My perspective is only from a 10-15 mile stretch of ground in 121. I'm not all over the unit. However, I have spent almost 25 years in that exact same stretch and I have killed a lot of mature bucks during that time. I only hunt public ground which get's absolutely POUNDED by gun hunter's every year. I run anywhere from 8-10 cameras in that stretch. In my opinion, and data backed up by my trail camera's, 121 has been pretty darn good for many of the last 25 years despite all the cats. The exception being those few years following EHD. Even after EHD I have been able to find a couple old deer worth hunting...until this year. I started using trail camera's in 2003, back when you had to get the film developed. This (2021) is the first year that I have ever started a season without a single big buck to hunt. I still have a few more days until the opener on the 25th...

It was tough after the 2009 winter and it wasn't great from 2015-2019 (2015 was the last bout of EHD) but I was still getting some great bucks on film and was killing some of them too. In 2012,13 and 14 I had a serious problem deciding which buck to hunt...multiple big bucks at most of cameras. I killed mature bucks in everyone of those years.

In the area I hunt we were getting close to being back there again. When I pulled my stands and cams on December 15th last year there were 12-13 bucks still alive that were all over 3 1/2 years old...that doesn't include the 2 my buddy and I killed. Most of them were 120-140" bucks and 1 was big one. As of my last camera check (earlier this week) only 1 of those bucks made it and he's not a buck I would shoot.

Cat's didn't do that.

I'll let you guys know a secret ,that you already know.
The 2015 bluetongue was not even that bad. And in my mind was more of a cover up for the huge mismanagement by WDFW .
2015 was the year 4pt was lifted. OTC Doe tags was given to archery,muzzleloader for there entire seasons. Youth,disabled modern Doe tags given for there entire season.
When you hand out OTC Doe tags like candy ,the candy jar doesn't stay full very long. Those does are future breeding stock.
You add the 4pt min lifted ,highest antlered harvest to date for 121 or 117 is 2015.
Basicly we have been on a downward trend ever since.
When the 4pt min was in play ,you created a surplus of deer.
That surplus causes predators population to go up.
Then you take away all surplus in a two year period.
Now all you have are....
Predators
Poachers
And a crap @$$ deer population.
Covid last year ,everybody hunted harder than ever before.
Good hunting weather last year helped.
Real bluetongue outbreak this year.
Well you see what we are left with.
Yes I do agree predators are a fraction of the problem,
I do agree cats didn't do all this.

[hunter399]

Let me give you guys an example of what I'm talking about.
Tomorrow is the last day rifle buck.
More Doe will hit the dirt than any other day of the season.

Just an example,people are desperate.

[jrebel]

Let me give you guys an example of what I'm talking about.
Tomorrow is the last day rifle buck.
More Doe will hit the dirt than any other day of the season.

Why do you say this?  Are you saying guys that don't find a buck will poach a doe? 

[hunter399]

Let me give you guys an example of what I'm talking about.
Tomorrow is the last day rifle buck.
More Doe will hit the dirt than any other day of the season.

Why do you say this?  Are you saying guys that don't find a buck will poach a doe?

I don't know these things for fact,but I suspect it yes.

[Seabass]

An archer never needed a doe tag in that unit. We were always able to shoot does until 2 years ago.

We also had massive fires in 2014, in addition to the 4-point restriction being lifted.

[jrebel]

Let me give you guys an example of what I'm talking about.
Tomorrow is the last day rifle buck.
More Doe will hit the dirt than any other day of the season.

Why do you say this?  Are you saying guys that don't find a buck will poach a doe?

I don't know these things for fact,but I suspect it yes.

I know a lot of hunters that don't share that sentiment.  I would argue that the end of the modern season has nothing to do with poaching.  If a person is going to poach a doe, they are going to do it regardless of the day of the week / month / year.   

[hunter399]

Let me give you guys an example of what I'm talking about.
Tomorrow is the last day rifle buck.
More Doe will hit the dirt than any other day of the season.

Why do you say this?  Are you saying guys that don't find a buck will poach a doe?

I don't know these things for fact,but I suspect it yes.

I know a lot of hunters that don't share that sentiment.  I would argue that the end of the modern season has nothing to do with poaching.  If a person is going to poach a doe, they are going to do it regardless of the day of the week / month / year.   

That may be true,don't really know..
But my "example" is just a window that you can look through.
It's not all cougars/predators effecting deer population.
There is many many many factors that are declining deer.
With that said,yes every hunter should whack a coyote,cougar,bear ,when they can.
But at the same time I truly believe poaching is a growing problem.
Out of season mule deer hunting,3pt min for mule,WT/mule deer Doe poaching, It doesn't take long to hurt deer population if you combine cougar deer kill and possible poaching that may go on.

[hunter399]

An archer never needed a doe tag in that unit. We were always able to shoot does until 2 years ago.

We also had massive fires in 2014, in addition to the 4-point restriction being lifted.

I Agree ,OTC Doe tags have there place,for youth,disabled,and archery ,when management and surplus animals exist.
Traditional if I remember right ,they would give archery the last five days of late season to smack a doe.
I don't ever remember it hurting deer population,and gave opportunity.
But 2015 they gave ALOT of Doe OTC opportunity across the board and ever since antlerless opportunity has just slowly been erased.

[nwwanderer]

All a big puzzle, lots of pieces.  Some of them come and go, EHDs.  Some can be will placed and move, predators, and you have to find a new place in the puzzle.  The people putting this moving maze together put themselves in groups and each group thinks the puzzle looks different.  The WDFW is charged with pleasing all of those groups which are working on different, they think, puzzles.  Because of the nature of WDFW the puzzle changes at the whim of politics and money.  Fun stuff.  Promote a puzzle enough times and it could become the norm, keep at it, thanks

[buckfvr]

Let me give you guys an example of what I'm talking about.
Tomorrow is the last day rifle buck.
More Doe will hit the dirt than any other day of the season.

I don't know these things for fact,but I suspect it yes.

Total load of crap.

[pianoman9701]

More than one thing can be true at the same time.

[jrebel]

More than one thing can be true at the same time.

 

100% agree.  I am not blind to the fact there are multiple factors....I just thought I could sit on my soap box for a while and bring up the cougar problem.   

Poaching, predators, disease, poor management, weather, etc., etc., etc., all play a part. 

[Seabass]

An archer never needed a doe tag in that unit. We were always able to shoot does until 2 years ago.

We also had massive fires in 2014, in addition to the 4-point restriction being lifted.

I Agree ,OTC Doe tags have there place,for youth,disabled,and archery ,when management and surplus animals exist.
Traditional if I remember right ,they would give archery the last five days of late season to smack a doe

I don't ever remember it hurting deer population,and gave opportunity.
But 2015 they gave ALOT of Doe OTC opportunity across the board and ever since antlerless opportunity has just slowly been erased.

Archer’s could shoot a doe on the first, last and every other day of the season. It was always that way. It’s not now and I’m fine with that.

[emac]

They could allow year around cat hunting with no quota.  They could allow us to bait cats.  They could allow us to trap cats.  They could allow us to hunt cougars at night. 

They can do a lot of things, but their biologist continue to blow smoke and say our state does not have a cat problem.  I have been told that our state has anywhere from 1500 ish cats / cougars.  This is complete BS and they know it.

I do believe it is legal to bait cats.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[JakeLand]

We’ve been beating a dead mule on cougar trapping our argument has been if you have a cat tag and are a licensed trapper then let us trap a cougar ( they go in bobcat cages constantly) it makes complete sense to me and a bunch of others but we get shot down by the commission every time about this 

[nwwanderer]

And it could be selective like hounds, catch and release with a rush!!  Be careful out there

[hunter399]

Let me give you guys an example of what I'm talking about.
Tomorrow is the last day rifle buck.
More Doe will hit the dirt than any other day of the season.

I don't know these things for fact,but I suspect it yes.

Total load of crap.

What exactly is a total load of crap.
I suppose in your perfect world poaching doesn't exist.
I'll tell ya what's a total load of crap.
Thinking that WDFW is gonna do anything different about predators,totally disregarded other issues that may be effecting our deer population. Keep living in a box where predators are the entire problem. And all your gonna see is deer numbers decline.