What We Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk

[Browndawg]

https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/cougars-decimate-washington-elk-calves/

When will WDFW get to the base of the problem and bring back hound hunting?

[pianoman9701]

The ban was instated by voter initiative. Except for performing emergency removal, the WDFW has no power to reverse that vote. It has to be done through voter initiative or referendum.

[7mmfan]

https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/cougars-decimate-washington-elk-calves/

When will WDFW get to the base of the problem and bring back hound hunting?

This comes up every time. They can't just "bring back" hound hunting. It was an initiative that was passed by the people, so it will take an act of the legislature or another initiative to bring it back.

Next in line is the Governor, who last year I believe wouldn't authorize an increase in the cougar quota despite WDFW saying it was advisable. We also have a game commission who, while currently under fire, has made it clear that they do not care what the WDFW biologists have to say and will make their decisions on seasons and quotas based on feelings.

My guess is the WDFW has known this for a while and would probably like to do something about it, but they literally have all the cards stacked against them, with very few meaningful options available to them that could make a difference.

Right now, all GMU's in the state are still open for cougar hunting. Get out there and track one down.

[timberfaller]

You can thank the WA Supreme court jesters for not overturning the Initiative!!  They couldn't count!  Our state claims to have "single" issue Initiative system.  To bad the court jesters couldn't count past ONE!  But then the WDFW didn't fight very hard either!

[Browndawg]

https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/cougars-decimate-washington-elk-calves/

When will WDFW get to the base of the problem and bring back hound hunting?

This comes up every time. They can't just "bring back" hound hunting. It was an initiative that was passed by the people, so it will take an act of the legislature or another initiative to bring it back.

Next in line is the Governor, who last year I believe wouldn't authorize an increase in the cougar quota despite WDFW saying it was advisable. We also have a game commission who, while currently under fire, has made it clear that they do not care what the WDFW biologists have to say and will make their decisions on seasons and quotas based on feelings.

My guess is the WDFW has known this for a while and would probably like to do something about it, but they literally have all the cards stacked against them, with very few meaningful options available to them that could make a difference.

Right now, all GMU's in the state are still open for cougar hunting. Get out there and track one down.

Yeah, I shouldn't have said WDFW. I know it's not up to them. It's just makes me sick to my stomach that our elected officials refuse to do the right thing for our elk and deer herds.
I need to learn how to hunt big cats. I've spent 40 years in the woods and have never laid eyes on one. I've seen tracks and have come across their kills, but that's it. 

[headshot5]

You can thank the WA Supreme court jesters for not overturning the Initiative!!  They couldn't count!  Our state claims to have "single" issue Initiative system.  To bad the court jesters couldn't count past ONE!  But then the WDFW didn't fight very hard either!

Yeah that.  The initiative was bogus, as it dealt with banning hound hunting, and banning baiting at the same time.  Should have been thrown out as it deals with 2 issues on one initiative.

[pianoman9701]

You can thank the WA Supreme court jesters for not overturning the Initiative!!  They couldn't count!  Our state claims to have "single" issue Initiative system.  To bad the court jesters couldn't count past ONE!  But then the WDFW didn't fight very hard either!

Yeah that.  The initiative was bogus, as it dealt with banning hound hunting, and banning baiting at the same time.  Should have been thrown out as it deals with 2 issues on one initiative.

I-1639 also had multiple aspects. The state Supreme Court is packed with liberals. That vote will never happen unless the bill they're considering is about more rights for the people or fewer government restrictions or taxes. And it doesn't matter for two reasons. First, the way the laws are written about the WDFW, they can't express an opinion about the impacts or concerns about an initiative or referendum. This allowed huge and unopposed misinformation by the anti-hunting lobby, the lobby that probably fills the governor's pockets with the most money or close to it. And secondly, this anti-hunting lobby can far outspend any group or coalition of groups to make sure that King, Pierce, and Thurston Counties  kill any initiative or referendum seeking to overturn the ban. We're stuck with the ban as long as the controlling liberals are counting the votes.

[Farmer72]

You can thank the WA Supreme court jesters for not overturning the Initiative!!  They couldn't count!  Our state claims to have "single" issue Initiative system.  To bad the court jesters couldn't count past ONE!  But then the WDFW didn't fight very hard either!

Yeah that.  The initiative was bogus, as it dealt with banning hound hunting, and banning baiting at the same time.  Should have been thrown out as it deals with 2 issues on one initiative.

It is a single subject system not single issue. You can have multiple things on it if it all works toward the same single subject.

I agree it is BS and that they stretch it by coming up with broad subject they can stuff several things under.

That is how I-1639 was put because it was all under the subject of safety.

[Alan K]

What WDFW could do though, for bears in addition to cougars, is expand seasons and bag limits for boot hunting methods recognizing that the lack of hound hunting has led to massive population increases having a detrimental effect on ungulates. Bear and cougar populations we sustainable with long season, baiting, trapping, etc. before the initiative. There could be unlimited bag limits and year around hunting and the boot hunting harvest would never reach those pre-initiative levels.

Falling populations are a function of take outpacing growth. The predator population has increased to a point that there needs to be a some take removed from the system, either in the form of predator removal, or hunting reduction in order to maintain the healthy populations we've historically had.  This is why the enviro's fight for no predator control, because it will eventually lead to a reduction in hunting. Restrict hunting enough and the sport will continue to fade out of existence. The more hunter numbers shrink, the higher the proportion of anti-hunting input. It's a snowball effect in the wrong direction.

[Special T]

IMO the important factor is the general trend of protecting predators. The Antis can make us chase our tail debating the details, while we do so they will just shave us a little closer to thier goal.  Fact, losing hounds has reduced harvest. Fact at every turn certain WDFW employees, legislators and the Govenor have done everything to suppress harvest. Other methods of hunting cats can be effective but lowering the quotas and ignoring the impacts of predation is a tactic. Delay is a strategy, and it is currently on the side of animal rights groups.

The powers that be are ok with killing more cats in the NE due to depredations than hunting season. The are ok will selling us on lower carry capacity of elk in the Blues than increase predator harvest. More than 1 tribe is running dogs to kill cats, and have killed a lot of them. (I wish more of it took place) I don't think the issue is killing predators as much as hurting and disenfranchisement of hunters.
We need to wrestle back control of the comission and some politicians in the Natural Resource Comitties.

[pianoman9701]

What WDFW could do though, for bears in addition to cougars, is expand seasons and bag limits for boot hunting methods recognizing that the lack of hound hunting has led to massive population increases having a detrimental effect on ungulates. Bear and cougar populations we sustainable with long season, baiting, trapping, etc. before the initiative. There could be unlimited bag limits and year around hunting and the boot hunting harvest would never reach those pre-initiative levels.

Falling populations are a function of take outpacing growth. The predator population has increased to a point that there needs to be a some take removed from the system, either in the form of predator removal, or hunting reduction in order to maintain the healthy populations we've historically had.  This is why the enviro's fight for no predator control, because it will eventually lead to a reduction in hunting. Restrict hunting enough and the sport will continue to fade out of existence. The more hunter numbers shrink, the higher the proportion of anti-hunting input. It's a snowball effect in the wrong direction.

I've been saying this since 1996 when the initiative passed.

[Humptulips]

An idea I have talked up with the Department for a number of years, trapping season on Cougar. The Commission has the power to do this without going to the Legislature. All they would need to do is reclassify cougar with the dual classification of big game/ furbearer and set a season. It would be cage traps only, but I believe it would be possible to catch cougar in a cage trap. Many units never reach their target harvest. Why not open those units to trapping? I had thought in the past if the Department would give a nod to it the Commission might listen.  I have pretty much gotten the cold shoulder from the Department.
With the current makeup of the Commission, I would have less hope. I think the idea still has merit though. Personally, I think anything that would increase the harvest of cougar would be a good thing. I'm not sure how many cougar might be taken this way but it is worth a try IMO.

[high_hunter]

I'd just seen this article and went to post it but am glad to see there is already constructive discussion around it.  I like Humptulops idea about the dual classification as furbearers.  The idea about unlimited boot hunting take is also appealing for predator management.

If not doing so already sportsmen need to continually voice our concerns and ideas to the politicians and WDFW board.

I'd read an article just the other day about concerns over cougar migration and lack of genetic diversity.  To combat it there are plans to install animal  overpasses..  Definitely not where I want my tax money spent unless there is research showing it benefits all game species as a whole.  If I can find it again will post for comments.   

[Stein]

There is also the notion of "they can't do anything."  Seems to come up a bunch on a variety of topics.  What was WDFW's position on the initiative?  What voter education material did they put out?  There is almost always something that could be done, maybe it helps, maybe not but at least try.

[hunter399]

Washington spews this BS voter crap.
Where's my 30 dollar car tabs,ohh ya it was voted in by the people,we can't do that.
The state does what it wants period. And the people get the shaft.

[hunter399]

An idea I have talked up with the Department for a number of years, trapping season on Cougar. The Commission has the power to do this without going to the Legislature. All they would need to do is reclassify cougar with the dual classification of big game/ furbearer and set a season. It would be cage traps only, but I believe it would be possible to catch cougar in a cage trap. Many units never reach their target harvest. Why not open those units to trapping? I had thought in the past if the Department would give a nod to it the Commission might listen.  I have pretty much gotten the cold shoulder from the Department.
With the current makeup of the Commission, I would have less hope. I think the idea still has merit though. Personally, I think anything that would increase the harvest of cougar would be a good thing. I'm not sure how many cougar might be taken this way but it is worth a try IMO.

I know it sounds good,and it may be good for awhile.
But the WDFW is doing you a favor ,they don't want trapping cougar in the public eye. And the damage that could result to trapping. You only have to look at the damage hound permits for bear to lumber company land. Now look at it,now that it in the public eye they don't give them out now.
Basicly you don't want that ball of 💩 and the damage that could come to trapping season when it hits the public view.

[Timberstalker]

We want any and every prudent management practice we can get for predator control that we can get.

[hunter399]

We want any and every prudent management practice we can get for predator control that we can get.

So you want trapping of cougar,even though you may lose all trapping seasons later on.When all the anti-hunters throw a big fit,protest,email,and convince governor inslee to do so.

All I'm saying is ,you have to think things through a bit.
And this is the reason WDFW won't support trapping of cougar, are you willing to risk a whole user groups season over a few cougar.

[Timberstalker]

We want any and every prudent management practice we can get for predator control that we can get.

So you want trapping of cougar,even though you may lose all trapping seasons later on.When all the anti-hunters throw a big fit,protest,email,and convince governor inslee to do so.

All I'm saying is ,you have to think things through a bit.
And this is the reason WDFW won't support trapping of cougar, are you willing to risk a whole user groups season over a few cougar.

Did you ever witness the elk herds in the Blues in the early 2000’s?


Kill every rotten predator we legally can.

[hunter399]

We want any and every prudent management practice we can get for predator control that we can get.

So you want trapping of cougar,even though you may lose all trapping seasons later on.When all the anti-hunters throw a big fit,protest,email,and convince governor inslee to do so.

All I'm saying is ,you have to think things through a bit.
And this is the reason WDFW won't support trapping of cougar, are you willing to risk a whole user groups season over a few cougar.

Did you ever witness the elk herds in the Blues in the early 2000’s?


Kill every rotten predator we legally can.

I do agree kill every predator that we legally can.👍👍
Inslee won't even raise cougar quota ,what do you think he will do to trapping seasons ,if he found out WDFW authorized a cougar trapping season.

[Special T]

We want any and every prudent management practice we can get for predator control that we can get.

So you want trapping of cougar,even though you may lose all trapping seasons later on.When all the anti-hunters throw a big fit,protest,email,and convince governor inslee to do so.

All I'm saying is ,you have to think things through a bit.
And this is the reason WDFW won't support trapping of cougar, are you willing to risk a whole user groups season over a few cougar.

The Antis are more organized in Wa now. What makes you think that they are not intent on banning live cage traps now?  How would live cage trapping cats as a season change that?

The antis are coming for ALL hunting. Boot hunting cats is not effective, we arnt getting hounds back.

Perhaps thenproblem is we just arnt pushing back enougj.

[pianoman9701]

We want any and every prudent management practice we can get for predator control that we can get.

So you want trapping of cougar,even though you may lose all trapping seasons later on.When all the anti-hunters throw a big fit,protest,email,and convince governor inslee to do so.

All I'm saying is ,you have to think things through a bit.
And this is the reason WDFW won't support trapping of cougar, are you willing to risk a whole user groups season over a few cougar.

The Antis are more organized in Wa now. What makes you think that they are not intent on banning live cage traps now?  How would live cage trapping cats as a season change that?

The antis are coming for ALL hunting. Boot hunting cats is not effective, we arnt getting hounds back.

Perhaps thenproblem is we just arnt pushing back enougj.

I think we're pushing back as hard as we can. The 10s of millions the animal rights lobby has to send out misinformation over the airwaves far outstrips what our combined efforts by tenfold. In addition, when legislation doesn't go their way, they use taxpayer money to sue the government and place injunctions on management orders. Along with the help they're buying from our governor and other politicians in Olympia, and the woke idiots they're convincing in King Co., it seems unsurmountable for the rest of the state to have reasonable population control on predators..

[sixgun_symphony]

You can thank the WA Supreme court jesters for not overturning the Initiative!!  They couldn't count!  Our state claims to have "single" issue Initiative system.  To bad the court jesters couldn't count past ONE!  But then the WDFW didn't fight very hard either!

 All of those judges were elected onto the court.

 The real problem here is that most hunters don't vote. Most gun owners don't vote A percentage of those that do vote are yellow dog Democrats that would be happy to surrender hunting and firearms to keep their party in power.

[sixgun_symphony]

 I see where that logic leads, everyone must give up on trapping, give up on hunting, and everyone must give up their guns because the Left will have a hissy-fit if we don't.   

We want any and every prudent management practice we can get for predator control that we can get.

So you want trapping of cougar,even though you may lose all trapping seasons later on.When all the anti-hunters throw a big fit,protest,email,and convince governor inslee to do so.

All I'm saying is ,you have to think things through a bit.
And this is the reason WDFW won't support trapping of cougar, are you willing to risk a whole user groups season over a few cougar.

[sixgun_symphony]

We need to win some elections if we are going to turn things around.

 That many are not aware that voter initiatives against hunting and trapping had passed, I know that they have not voted as they have not been paying attention to politics. That most of our people don't vote is why the Left has put restrictions on hunting/trapping, while introducing wolves to eliminate hunting as a management tool for populations of ungulates.

 

[hunter399]

We need to win some elections if we are going to turn things around.

 That many are not aware that voter initiatives against hunting and trapping had passed, I know that they have not voted as they have not been paying attention to politics. That most of our people don't vote is why the Left has put restrictions on hunting/trapping, while introducing wolves to eliminate hunting as a management tool for populations of ungulates.

I agree
Inslee needs voted out,I'd take a homeless bum as governor.

[buglebrush]

Way too many people defending WDFW.  They have done nothing to help at all, and they're not nearly as powerless at people pretend.  They could be running ads showing calves/fawns getting eaten, educating the public, and strongly pushing for a return to hound hunting.  Let's face it, we're doomed without vast increases in predator harvest, and WDFW is doing nothing at all to help and many things to hinder. 

[Taco280AI]

WDFW is doing a great job and are headed exactly where they want to be - no hunting. It's full of leftist, anti hunting activists.

[hunter399]

WDFW is doing a great job and are headed exactly where they want to be - no hunting. It's full of leftist, anti hunting activists.

No at the current moment they take our money,then please the anti-hunters.

[elkchaser54]

Hunters are only about 2% of the population.  Thinking we can  organize in to a voting block is crazy talk.  We have to use the organizations that we have set up to try and influence the WDFW in a meaningful way.  We will see what the 21st brings about the spring Bear to see if these organizations hold any sway with the department.  The spring Bear cancel got a lot of attention online so let's hope this works or we will keep losing. 

[hughjorgan]

Hunters are only about 2% of the population.  Thinking we can  organize in to a voting block is crazy talk.  We have to use the organizations that we have set up to try and influence the WDFW in a meaningful way.  We will see what the 21st brings about the spring Bear to see if these organizations hold any sway with the department.  The spring Bear cancel got a lot of attention online so let's hope this works or we will keep losing.

It’s not the WDFW you have to sway for the spring bear hunt, it was the commission who is appointed by the governor.

[Buzzsaw461]

 

We need to win some elections if we are going to turn things around.

 That many are not aware that voter initiatives against hunting and trapping had passed, I know that they have not voted as they have not been paying attention to politics. That most of our people don't vote is why the Left has put restrictions on hunting/trapping, while introducing wolves to eliminate hunting as a management tool for populations of ungulates.

I agree
Inslee needs voted out,I'd take a homeless bum as governor.

[Simcoe hunter]

What WDFW could do though, for bears in addition to cougars, is expand seasons and bag limits for boot hunting methods recognizing that the lack of hound hunting has led to massive population increases having a detrimental effect on ungulates. Bear and cougar populations we sustainable with long season, baiting, trapping, etc. before the initiative. There could be unlimited bag limits and year around hunting and the boot hunting harvest would never reach those pre-initiative levels.

Falling populations are a function of take outpacing growth. The predator population has increased to a point that there needs to be a some take removed from the system, either in the form of predator removal, or hunting reduction in order to maintain the healthy populations we've historically had.  This is why the enviro's fight for no predator control, because it will eventually lead to a reduction in hunting. Restrict hunting enough and the sport will continue to fade out of existence. The more hunter numbers shrink, the higher the proportion of anti-hunting input. It's a snowball effect in the wrong direction.

And the winner is... this is it in a nut shell.  Make hunting as unrewarding as possible for those who participate as you can and maybe they will give up the pastime for something else.  They really don't care about the wolves or the bears as much as they claim but see them as a tool to eradicate hunting.  Eradicate hunting and the next logical step is that you and I don't need firearms any longer.

[cooltimber]

our group are all going on predator control.

[1Guy]

With all of the Predators out there how is the younger generation supposed to be interested or excited about hunting when they dont ever see any thing legal to shoot at . my daughter started hunting for the first time about 5 years ago and almost quit until I took her to a different state and has got five deer in a row just got her first deer here last year . My dad a long time hunter  believes that people started planting wolves so you don't need your guns or hunting anymore.   Predators will just take care of everything. When I took my daughter to the gun safety hunter education class one of the teachers asked do you know why we have hunting seasons? He said
 "to get rid of the excess animals" I thought to myself holy crap I can't believe we are having hunting season any more , what access animals?

[Skyvalhunter]

Excess animals, those would be the ones coming down by peoples houses to escape the predators.

[444Marlin]

https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/cougars-decimate-washington-elk-calves/

When will WDFW get to the base of the problem and bring back hound hunting?

Browndawg:   Why don't you go out there and try to call them in?   I know some spots!

[Browndawg]

https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/cougars-decimate-washington-elk-calves/

When will WDFW get to the base of the problem and bring back hound hunting?

Browndawg:   Why don't you go out there and try to call them in?   I know some spots!

Did we just become best friends? I've never tried calling one in. I usually buy a tag in case I happen to run across one while elk hunting. I'd love to learn how to do it.

[444Marlin]

[/quote]

Did we just become best friends? I've never tried calling one in. I usually buy a tag in case I happen to run across one while elk hunting. I'd love to learn how to do it.
[/quote]

Nope.  We've been friends for long time.  Packed out a few elk.  Drank a lot of Basil's together. 

[trophyhunt]

Tried calling w an expensive caller, in areas w lots of predators, 0-3 the past 2 weeks. I thought yotes would be easy, tried cats too. It just isn’t that easy even when in an area w lots of predators.

[MADMAX]

Tried calling w an expensive caller, in areas w lots of predators, 0-3 the past 2 weeks. I thought yotes would be easy, tried cats too. It just isn’t that easy even when in an area w lots of predators.

Frankly
I have a foxpro and have had much better luck with wind calls
I called in a cougar and killed it using
10 inches of new black rubber fuel line with a C-3 predator reed from burnham brothers calls stuffed inside
Bite down blow and repeat

[Browndawg]

Did we just become best friends? I've never tried calling one in. I usually buy a tag in case I happen to run across one while elk hunting. I'd love to learn how to do it.
[/quote]

Nope.  We've been friends for long time.  Packed out a few elk.  Drank a lot of Basil's together. 
[/quote]

  Basil sounds good. Let's share some soon