Should I manage the pregnancy or outsource it?

[Netminder01]

Advice/recommendations please:

I have a MH Chocolate lab dam about to be bred for her first time over the next few weeks. I've never owned a pregnant dog before, much less all that goes into a pregnant hunting retriever. I'm torn if the prudent thing to do is outsource it to a qualified person vs manage it myself. It feels so detached to have someone else manage it but at the same time, safe.

What advice would you give a first-time, almost pet grandparent if I were to keep things in-house? Or, should I outsource it?

[snake]

its a no brainer. Do it yourself. its not that complicated. You'll do fine.

[follow maggie]

What’s a MH?

[callturner]

Master Hunter. Just work with your vet. They will help you .

[follow maggie]

Ahhh. Thank you

[lokidog]

The hardest thing we have dealt with breeding is the lack of appetite getting into the pregnancy. We have had to get creative, rotate foods every couple of days, add flavor supplements, etc. If you have time ahead of breeding, feel free to pre load some calories. You don't want them fat, but increasing food by 10 or 20% might be helpful to give a little cushion. Be sure to talk to your vet ahead of time, some have no clue, it seems, about breeding/pregnancy issues.

Hopefully you have done your due diligence with orthopedic, eye, heart, and other genetic testing and that the male's owner has done the same thing. There is absolutely no excuse for breeding dogs with poor genetics even if they are the best hunting dog in the world... someone will pay for it, eventually. 

[jackelope]

The hardest thing we have dealt with breeding is the lack of appetite getting into the pregnancy. We have had to get creative, rotate foods every couple of days, add flavor supplements, etc. If you have time ahead of breeding, feel free to pre load some calories. You don't want them fat, but increasing food by 10 or 20% might be helpful to give a little cushion. Be sure to talk to your vet ahead of time, some have no clue, it seems, about breeding/pregnancy issues.

Hopefully you have done your due diligence with orthopedic, eye, heart, and other genetic testing and that the male's owner has done the same thing. There is absolutely no excuse for breeding dogs with poor genetics even if they are the best hunting dog in the world... someone will pay for it, eventually. 

“To make the best better”

[callturner]

Funny you should talk about tests. I was just going thru the local Nickle ads looking at dogs and there are about 25 or so ads for labradoodles , golden doodles and such. All crossbred mongerels and their asking anywhere from $1000. to $2000. for their puppy's. No back ground or genetics or possible papers. While the AKC pups are going for half that.

[KFhunter]

We don't know your situation, I had a couple young girls who doted over the pups so for me it was super easy.  The dam did 100% first time. 

[huntnfmly]

This site is great

[Broomd]

The hardest thing we have dealt with breeding is the lack of appetite getting into the pregnancy. We have had to get creative, rotate foods every couple of days, add flavor supplements, etc. If you have time ahead of breeding, feel free to pre load some calories...

Yep, excellent posting, dealt with this this Fall, fortunately our Aussiedoodle b*tch cooperated, she's nursing pups now; but it wasn't easy! It took a ton of food variety and table scraps real-time, something we never do!

[KFhunter]

I used some powdered lactose free milk, well ahead of welping date to guage tolerance, and switched her feed to a lactating female feed well ahead too.   Give her liver treats, they need more copper during gestation.  If she rejects feed a day or two before whelping its not a big deal, stuff her with calories during gestation and try to carry a bit of a fat layer...tough on highly active dogs I know, but more confinement and calm time indoors can help build some fat.

Make the changes earlier in gestation rather than last minute.

Honestly though, a good complete feed rated for lactating females is going to be good enough without the extra stuff.  I just had a heck of a time getting some fat on her, shes high enery.

[lokidog]

Funny you should talk about tests. I was just going thru the local Nickle ads looking at dogs and there are about 25 or so ads for labradoodles , golden doodles and such. All crossbred mongerels and their asking anywhere from $1000. to $2000. for their puppy's. No back ground or genetics or possible papers. While the AKC pups are going for half that.

It is disgusting what people get charged for mutts. We've had people question our prices, in both ways, why so much and why so little. Our dogs have been x-rayed and evaluated for hips, elbows, knees, etc., eyes (annually), and heart conditions. We have done genetic screening panels and some rudimentary titles. We look carefully at pedigrees and analyze potential crosses to reduce inbreeding issues. Our pups are raised in our livingroom until about four weeks when they can no longer be contained in the whelping box. Once outside, they still get hours of attention a day.

AKC registration doesn't necessarily mean that any of this has been done, so it is still up to the due diligence of the buyer.

[callturner]

Funny you should talk about tests. I was just going thru the local Nickle ads looking at dogs and there are about 25 or so ads for labradoodles , golden doodles and such. All crossbred mongerels and their asking anywhere from $1000. to $2000. for their puppy's. No back ground or genetics or possible papers. While the AKC pups are going for half that.

It is disgusting what people get charged for mutts. We've had people question our prices, in both ways, why so much and why so little. Our dogs have been x-rayed and evaluated for hips, elbows, knees, etc., eyes (annually), and heart conditions. We have done genetic screening panels and some rudimentary titles. We look carefully at pedigrees and analyze potential crosses to reduce inbreeding issues. Our pups are raised in our livingroom until about four weeks when they can no longer be contained in the whelping box. Once outside, they still get hours of attention a day.

AKC registration doesn't necessarily mean that any of this has been done, so it is still up to the due diligence of the buyer.

Yup, and most of these "breeders" are nothing more than puppy mills trying to turn a quick buck with fashion dogs. Don't get me wrong, I raised and bred hounds for 22 years crossing them. But it was from proven dogs. I now raise chessies and would never cross breed . NO chessie doodles from me! Ha!

[KFhunter]

Chessy-Doodle 

[KFhunter]

I'm also convinced these puppy mills bonk undesirable pups, that's not in me to do..

[jackelope]

I'm also convinced these puppy mills bonk undesirable pups, that's not in me to do..

What do legitimate upstanding breeders do with undesirable pups? Pups that don’t meet the breed standards?

[KFhunter]

Sell them with papers that they cannot be breeders, and if they do, the litter cannot be papered.

You have an option with AKC to do this when you register the litter.

[callturner]

My female chessie has papers like that, non-registered to be bred. While I understand it , I was sold a $1000. dog and told this later. I feel I got taken and I told the breeder that. I was told that if I gave my pup all these tests she would sign off on the papers. Id never heard of doing business like that and would prolly never paid that kind of money had I known. The dog now is 6 years old with no problems and I may breed her to my male . I just want hunting dogs and papers don't make them that. There both good hunting dogs so my chances are there. 
.

[huntnfmly]

Sell them with papers that they cannot be breeders, and if they do, the litter cannot be papered.

You have an option with AKC to do this when you register the litter.

 

My female chessie has papers like that, non-registered to be bred. While I understand it , I was sold a $1000. dog and told this later. I feel I got taken and I told the breeder that. I was told that if I gave my pup all these tests she would sign off on the papers. Id never heard of doing business like that and would prolly never paid that kind of money had I known. The dog now is 6 years old with no problems and I may breed her to my male . I just want hunting dogs and papers don't make them that. There both good hunting dogs so my chances are there. 
.

[jackelope]

My female chessie has papers like that, non-registered to be bred. While I understand it , I was sold a $1000. dog and told this later. I feel I got taken and I told the breeder that. I was told that if I gave my pup all these tests she would sign off on the papers. Id never heard of doing business like that and would prolly never paid that kind of money had I known. The dog now is 6 years old with no problems and I may breed her to my male . I just want hunting dogs and papers don't make them that. There both good hunting dogs so my chances are there. 
.

I think sometimes the idea behind that is that they weren’t health screened or they have known health issues and they don’t want to propagate that, which makes sense to me. No sense in reproducing potential or known health issues.  Eyes and hip and elbow certifications are not the same as papers like AKC pedigree papers.

[KFhunter]

My female chessie has papers like that, non-registered to be bred. While I understand it , I was sold a $1000. dog and told this later. I feel I got taken and I told the breeder that. I was told that if I gave my pup all these tests she would sign off on the papers. Id never heard of doing business like that and would prolly never paid that kind of money had I known. The dog now is 6 years old with no problems and I may breed her to my male . I just want hunting dogs and papers don't make them that. There both good hunting dogs so my chances are there. 
.

I think sometimes the idea behind that is that they weren’t health screened or they have known health issues and they don’t want to propagate that, which makes sense to me. No sense in reproducing potential or known health issues.  Eyes and hip and elbow certifications are not the same as papers like AKC pedigree papers.

That's impossible to know for 2 years, which is the min age for some of these screens.  If the litter is a bad genetic pairing it'll be too late by then, and they shouldn't be doing repeat pairings anyway having learned of it.


imo - litter restrictions are meant to put increased value on prized dogs and create a finite quantity.   It's more about $$ than increasing the quality.

[callturner]

Used to be just hips. Then eyes and hips. Then eyes hips and elbows. Now there's also a couple of specialized blood tests that are only done by certain labs. The cost of this is what raises the price of the pup. It should be up to the owner of the dogs to be bred to decide if they want these tests. If I'm paying $1000. plus, for a pup I would expect these tests to have been done on the parents. Dogs other than puppy mills are usually not bred till after 2 years when they have matured. My breeding papers were held hostage as far as I'm concerned. Won't happen again. Lesson learned.

[huntnfmly]

My female chessie has papers like that, non-registered to be bred. While I understand it , I was sold a $1000. dog and told this later. I feel I got taken and I told the breeder that. I was told that if I gave my pup all these tests she would sign off on the papers. Id never heard of doing business like that and would prolly never paid that kind of money had I known. The dog now is 6 years old with no problems and I may breed her to my male . I just want hunting dogs and papers don't make them that. There both good hunting dogs so my chances are there. 
.

I think sometimes the idea behind that is that they weren’t health screened or they have known health issues and they don’t want to propagate that, which makes sense to me. No sense in reproducing potential or known health issues.  Eyes and hip and elbow certifications are not the same as papers like AKC pedigree papers.

That's impossible to know for 2 years, which is the min age for some of these screens.  If the litter is a bad genetic pairing it'll be too late by then, and they shouldn't be doing repeat pairings anyway having learned of it.


imo - litter restrictions are meant to put increased value on prized dogs and create a finite quantity.   It's more about $$ than increasing the quality.

This ^^^
My daughter and son in-law bought a male Bully both parents are champion show dogs
They payed half the price without papers and if they wanted papers for breeding purposes they would have to pay full price

[jackelope]

This is why I wouldn’t make a good dog breeder.

[Alchase]

This is why I wouldn’t make a good dog breeder.

This is why I got out of dog breeding!

The worse thing to happen to the “Border Collie” breed, was to have AKC decide what makes a good Border Collie!

The “standard” use to be the dog’s ability to herd.  Border Collies have 17 variations of color and coat. AKC only acknowledges a couple. And none have anything to do with how well a dog herds.

Just look at what they have done to the German Shepherd!
Does any other breed practically walk on their eldows?
AMC has bread in deformity!

[jackelope]

I guess I feel like I wouldn’t want to sell a sub-standard animal, therefore I wouldn’t breed sub-standard animals. If the animal isn’t worthy of breeding, I wouldn’t sell it. But I don’t know what I’d do with a sub par dog that isn’t up to the standard.

If there are 2 recognized varieties of something, then there are 2 recognized varieties. Not 17. Kinda like the silver labs. Silver labs aren’t chocolates. They’re silver. Not a recognized color.

I’ll stick to breeding stuff I can eat.

[HUNTIN4SIX]

Had to laugh.....”out source a pregnancy”?  Maybe I missed something?  Do people do that with dogs? 
My wife is pregnant with number 10, sometimes I wanna out source her.....just a joke!  Well maybe when she’s grumpy.

We have bred our golden several times.  She has every possible test there is...very expensive too.  So we had to ask more to recoup our cost.  Most good breeders I know don’t have a litter until they are sold, or there is enough interest.  We usually have our litters spoken for before hand.  Never have been stuck with one.  Seems like some of the puppy markets are slowing down a bit. 

[huntnfmly]

No reason to laugh a fellow member had a legit question

[HUNTIN4SIX]

No reason to laugh a fellow member had a legit question

Not laughing at him....maybe re-read my post

[Igor]

No reason to laugh a fellow member had a legit question

Not laughing at him....maybe re-read my post

It made me laugh, too.......and I had no idea what he was talking about..............

[Alchase]

If there are 2 recognized varieties of something, then there are 2 recognized varieties. Not 17. Kinda like the silver labs. Silver labs aren’t chocolates. They’re silver. Not a recognized color.

I’ll stick to breeding stuff I can eat.

It is the “Recognized by whom” that make the difference.

If you are the one eating them, only your standards matters!

Had to laugh.....”out source a pregnancy”?  Maybe I missed something?  Do people do that with dogs? 
My wife is pregnant with number 10, sometimes I wanna out source her.....just a joke!  Well maybe when she’s grumpy.

Ok that is funny as hell!

I use to get $1000 every time I studded my white Siberian Husky male. We had a great working relationship. He made me $4k a month, and I made him………uhem, a happy camper!
 

[lokidog]

I'm also convinced these puppy mills bonk undesirable pups, that's not in me to do..

The only thing "undesirable" for a puppy mill would be a visible deformity, probably not much bonking going on. 

[lokidog]

I'm also convinced these puppy mills bonk undesirable pups, that's not in me to do..

What do legitimate upstanding breeders do with undesirable pups? Pups that don’t meet the breed standards?

Highly unlikely to occur with an upstanding breeder, so the question is probably moot. We had a runt in one litter, half the size of the other puppies at birth, and born not breathing. I spent almost an hour resuscitating the little guy. He ended up, according to the person who got him knowing full disclosure of his history, being "the smartest pup/dog he had ever worked with.

[lokidog]

My female chessie has papers like that, non-registered to be bred. While I understand it , I was sold a $1000. dog and told this later. I feel I got taken and I told the breeder that. I was told that if I gave my pup all these tests she would sign off on the papers. Id never heard of doing business like that and would prolly never paid that kind of money had I known. The dog now is 6 years old with no problems and I may breed her to my male . I just want hunting dogs and papers don't make them that. There both good hunting dogs so my chances are there. 
.

I think sometimes the idea behind that is that they weren’t health screened or they have known health issues and they don’t want to propagate that, which makes sense to me. No sense in reproducing potential or known health issues.  Eyes and hip and elbow certifications are not the same as papers like AKC pedigree papers.

That's impossible to know for 2 years, which is the min age for some of these screens.  If the litter is a bad genetic pairing it'll be too late by then, and they shouldn't be doing repeat pairings anyway having learned of it.


imo - litter restrictions are meant to put increased value on prized dogs and create a finite quantity.   It's more about $$ than increasing the quality.

We sell our puppies with "Limited" AKC registration. It is NOT to increase value. The purpose is, at least for us, to make sure that people that get a puppy from us and want to breed do their due diligence (joint testing, eyes, heart) at two years before being able to breed as AKC. We change to full AKC at no extra charge (though I know some breeders charge a fee) when proof of health testing and a performance title are shown to us. For breeders that we know and trust, we sell full AKC to start with.

[lokidog]

My female chessie has papers like that, non-registered to be bred. While I understand it , I was sold a $1000. dog and told this later. I feel I got taken and I told the breeder that. I was told that if I gave my pup all these tests she would sign off on the papers. Id never heard of doing business like that and would prolly never paid that kind of money had I known. The dog now is 6 years old with no problems and I may breed her to my male . I just want hunting dogs and papers don't make them that. There both good hunting dogs so my chances are there. 
.

This is a common practice by most REPUTABLE breeders, it is our (reputable breeders) only way to help prevent future abuse of "our" puppies by backyard breeders. I will say, you should have been informed of this up front. The only thing needing testing on our last litter of pups would be joints, eyes and heart as ALL of our puppies were clear by parentage for genetic anomalies commonly tested for.

Some reputable breeders will up the price for full registration, we do not. Silly thing to whine about though when one puppy easily covers the upcost when you breed. It helps weed out the folks that want to breed because it seems like it would be "fun" or they just want their kids to see the "miracle of life". Breeders have very little ability to have any say in how the puppies that they have put their time, money, and love into are used in the future, this is one small bit.

[callturner]

I have seen the full and partial registration papers advertised and totally understand. When I picked up the pup at 7 weeks I was told the puppy papers were not back yet. Then when i received them  and brought up the unchecked box the breeder said "oh I'll fix that for you".  Life happens and several months later when asked she layed the testing news on me. While I just purchased a hunting dog, the news shocked me to say the least. Nothing was said up front and full price was paid. I have never bred bird dogs and never wanted to. While papers don't mean that much to me It was part of the deal . I found out later from other REPUTABLE breeders that she does that on occasion. As it turned out the dog worked out fine and is a good hunting dog. If I decide to breed her it will be without papers. Im not a dog jockey so anything sold or given away will be with that being said, "no papers". My dogs are known to perform , I do not field trial.

[Netminder01]

Master Hunter. Just work with your vet. They will help you .

So, here's the thing....  my vet has repeatedly tried to "warn me of the risks" of breeding. Breeding does not conform to the vets POV, so I've rotated around inside the same clinic.

[Netminder01]

The hardest thing we have dealt with breeding is the lack of appetite getting into the pregnancy. We have had to get creative, rotate foods every couple of days, add flavor supplements, etc. If you have time ahead of breeding, feel free to pre load some calories. You don't want them fat, but increasing food by 10 or 20% might be helpful to give a little cushion. Be sure to talk to your vet ahead of time, some have no clue, it seems, about breeding/pregnancy issues.

Hopefully you have done your due diligence with orthopedic, eye, heart, and other genetic testing and that the male's owner has done the same thing. There is absolutely no excuse for breeding dogs with poor genetics even if they are the best hunting dog in the world... someone will pay for it, eventually. 

Yes, all tests have long been done w/ good marks & passes. My dog and the sire are all set.

[Netminder01]

Had to laugh.....”out source a pregnancy”?  Maybe I missed something?  Do people do that with dogs? 
My wife is pregnant with number 10, sometimes I wanna out source her.....just a joke!  Well maybe when she’s grumpy.

We have bred our golden several times.  She has every possible test there is...very expensive too.  So we had to ask more to recoup our cost.  Most good breeders I know don’t have a litter until they are sold, or there is enough interest.  We usually have our litters spoken for beforehand.  Never have been stuck with one.  Seems like some of the puppy markets are slowing down a bit.

It's funny, don't worry! I'd been planning to do it myself all along... not knowing, what I don't know. I'm single, work a lot but my lab is with me all the time. As I was talking to my trainer he thought it was unusual for ME to keep my dam throughout. He suggested sending her to a woman who used to breed and now is just a friend of his kennel. For a fee, she manages as much as I'd like. It feels so impersonal to me but I want to make sure my dog and her pups get premium nutrition and a clean environment.

[KFhunter]

Not a bad idea....


Have her baby sit the dog numerous times well in advance to ease separation anxiety if you choose this route.  If the dog is happy to see her when you drop her off, that's a good sign. 

If you have to peel the dog out of the truck, not so much..

[Netminder01]

I'm also convinced these puppy mills bonk undesirable pups, that's not in me to do..

What do legitimate upstanding breeders do with undesirable pups? Pups that don’t meet the breed standards?

Those become pets, just great pets.

[Netminder01]

Well, I decided to go manage this myself. Now y'all have done it! 

Nelli is having a week of debauchery and 'flag-waving', we'll see if she'll stand for him. Fingers crossed!

[KFhunter]

Updates?

[Netminder01]

Updates?

Sorry for the radio silence, I missed Nelli's' window by a day or two, she never hooked up with the stud; tail wagging and flirted a lot, just never hooked up. She probably doesn't know what 'hooking up' looks like living with me nowadays lol 

The millisecond she shows sign, off she goes for another attempt. Probably next month or June.

I opted for Embark genetic testing... kinda pricey but it was easy enough. Swab the mouth, wait, results are published to the web.  For those interested Nelli's results: http://embk.me/superbenelli

[lokidog]

Updates?

Sorry for the radio silence, I missed Nelli's' window by a day or two, she never hooked up with the stud; tail wagging and flirted a lot, just never hooked up. She probably doesn't know what 'hooking up' looks like living with me nowadays lol 

The millisecond she shows sign, off she goes for another attempt. Probably next month or June.

I opted for Embark genetic testing... kinda pricey but it was easy enough. Swab the mouth, wait, results are published to the web.  For those interested Nelli's results: http://embk.me/superbenelli

That's a bummer, we are hoping that we will see the drippy blood trail signs for Rey some time in the next month for another go at breeding. We tried last Fall, the male's owner only does AI, so have a year to try again at no additional cost... well, besides hormone testing, vet visits, etc.

Good luck.