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Author Topic: Elk camps no show  (Read 7602 times)

Offline mtncook

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Elk camps no show
« on: October 31, 2023, 09:53:19 AM »
Here in the Blue Mountains the number of camps reflect the game numbers.  During the General deer season i observed a reduced number of camps however nothing like the lack of numbers for Elk season.  About the only Elk hunters around have a Quality Tag or a group that makes atrip each year as a tradition.   The Game numbers are very low, calf survival is crucial for the future population. Ive said for years now that our elk will die off due to old age without good replacement numbers.  My cameras reveal good numbers in Spring but as Fall approaches very view are seen.  Hunters are moving on to other areas.  I cant point to 1 specific cause but many issues come into play. Obviously in recent years preditors play a big roll in survival. The Game Department stopped their normal winter game counts I'm sure because they were afraid of what they would find.
Pretty scary for a future.  Thoughts from an "Old Guy"

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2023, 10:08:36 AM »
The Wildlife Commission may well have ended the winter count to purposely hide the damage they're doing. Their pro-predator, anti-ungulate practices are no doubt playing havoc on the Blues elk. I'm sorry to hear this.
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Offline dvolmer

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2023, 10:30:19 AM »
I had the quality Dayton tag in 2019. I saw 75 cows during my week long hunt. Not one of them had a calf.
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Offline Stein

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2023, 10:39:44 AM »
I had the quality Dayton tag in 2019. I saw 75 cows during my week long hunt. Not one of them had a calf.

 :yike:

Offline Woodchuck

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2023, 10:53:45 AM »
The lack of camps up along Skyline is very telling to me. Maybe a quarter of what used to be up there and I think I'm being generous.
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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2023, 11:01:03 AM »
This year  muzzy we had two 342 cow tags in camp. Six hunters. We have hunted this unit for years.
We scouted in Sept. and counted 17 cows two with calves and one Spike in four days.

When the season opened we saw no elk until the last day when we came close on the cow tags.

I know guys who won’t go u less they draw a cow tag, because it isn’t worth hunting spikes.

Next year we may not hunt elk if one of us v doesn’t draw a cow tag.

Mule deer was no better.


Too much hunting of baby makers and predators is my thought. I would like to see a total ban on hunting cows for three years. And an increase on Predator hunting . :twocents:
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Offline hughjorgan

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2023, 11:47:06 AM »
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2023/oct/20/continuing-blue-mountain-elk-study-shows-contrasti/

By Eric Barker
Lewiston Tribune
LEWISTON – Officials from the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife have released results from the second year of a much-watched elk calf survival study in the Blue Mountains.

The findings contrast sharply with the first year of data. During 2021, only about 13% of more than 100 elk calves that were captured, fitted with tracking collars and then released ended up surviving. In the second year, survival jumped to 47%.

In both years, predation, at about 77%, was the leading cause of mortality, and cougars were responsible for the majority of the predation – about 58% in year one and about 71% in year two.

The study, which has one year remaining, is being followed closely by camps at the opposite ends of the state’s political spectrum as it relates to the management of fish and wildlife. On one side, local politicians and hunting groups want the agency to help elk in the Blue Mountains by putting more pressure on mountain lions. On the other, wildlife and animal rights advocacy groups, along with a portion of the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission, are highly skeptical of predator hunting and the ability of predators to drive population declines.

The elk herd in the Blues has fallen on tough times. It is about 25% below the 5,500-animal objective set by the department. A harsh winter with poor survival in 2017 started the trouble, which was accentuated by lingering winter conditions late into 2019. Since 2017, the agency has documented low recruitment of elk from calves to adults across the heart of the Blues, and the herd has been determined to be “at risk.”


That designation prompted a two-pronged monitoring project. The agency is looking at annual recruitment, expressed as the ratio of elk calves per 100 cows and tallied by aerial surveys. It is also looking at how many calves are surviving and what is causing mortality.

To get at survival, agency biologists are fitting newborn calves with collars that emit a mortality signal if the device has not moved in five hours. They then rush to the site and attempt to determine the cause of death.

During the first year of the study, the recruitment and survival data aligned. The calf-to-cow ration ranged from 13% to 19% and the survival was 13.6%. In the second year, recruitment ranged from 7% to 19% but survival was estimated at 47.5%. A calf-to-cow ratio of 25% is needed for elk herds to remain stable.

“Overall, the available information – consistently low recruitment ratios and 1 of 2 years of poor estimated survival – indicates that the capacity for this population to grow to its objective level is hindered, albeit potentially highly variable,” the agency wrote in a summary.

That sets up 2023 as potentially key to providing a more complete picture of the herd, recruitment, calf survival and the most common cause of mortality.

Paul Wik, district wildlife biologist for the agency at Clarkston and head of the project, stressed the study is incomplete and scientific prudence cautions against drawing premature conclusions, especially those which may be used to base management options. But he said the discrepancy in survival could be because of stark differences in climatic conditions. During Year 1, the area suffered under a heat dome that saw temperatures spike well above 100 degrees a few weeks after most calves were born. That was accompanied by a drought and followed by large wildfires that altered the way elk typically use their habitat. Year two saw much more moderate temperatures and above-average summer precipitation.


Wik said it’s possible the conditions during the summer of 2021, the study’s first year, led to reduced pregnancy rates that fall and fewer calves being born in the spring of 2022. Even though the number of calves may have been down, the wetter and more moderate temperatures could have led to higher survival. However, Wik is careful to caution that the study does not include a look at cow pregnancy rates or their overall health. He also noted variability in calf survival is common.

Wik did say that during both years of the study, most of the mortality is happening early in the lives of calves and that over-winter survival has been good. During harsh winters, mortality often shows up quite late.

“We have not documented any predation or starvation events after November in the two years,” he said. “So, one thing to take from that, if there was a carrying capacity issue, you would expect carrying capacity to show itself through poor survival especially with young of the year, so we don’t think it’s a habitat-driven issue.”

Wik said results from the 2023 group of collared calves and the entire study will be available next summer.

“We need the third year of data,” he said.

Offline Pathfinder101

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2023, 12:07:21 PM »
Anecdotally, I can tell you that:
1.  I live in Unit 154
2.  I used to hunt an archery elk camp in the Blues every year
3.  I no longer hunt it because you can no longer find an elk on the public land I used to hunt
4.  That same piece of land has now produced nearly a dozen bears and a cougar over the past couple of years (we now hunt it as a "bear camp" in Aug/Sept)
5.  I still put in for the special draw elk tags; but that's because I know I can get access to the private farms where they are seeking refuge from the wolves
6.  If I draw a tag, I won't even waste my time with our "old elk camp".  We used to see 350"+ bulls every season.  Now you can't buy a cow there with a million bucks.

Take that for what it is. 
Maybe this will sound like a grumpy local, but in my humble opinion, if I didn't have access to the private ground where the elk are, I would consider it irresponsible to put my name in the hat for a tag right now.   :twocents:
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Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2023, 12:40:47 PM »
This year  muzzy we had two 342 cow tags in camp. Six hunters. We have hunted this unit for years.
We scouted in Sept. and counted 17 cows two with calves and one Spike in four days.

When the season opened we saw no elk until the last day when we came close on the cow tags.

I know guys who won’t go u less they draw a cow tag, because it isn’t worth hunting spikes.

Next year we may not hunt elk if one of us v doesn’t draw a cow tag.

Mule deer was no better.


Too much hunting of baby makers and predators is my thought. I would like to see a total ban on hunting cows for three years. And an increase on Predator hunting . :twocents:


I wouldn't give up on 342 that easy. Maybe try a different part :dunno: I spend a good bit of time in 342 and there is no shortage of elk. No shortage of elk in any of the yakima gmu's really. The Yakima herd is thriving at 11k animals. That's more elk than the region has ever had in its history except for a short window of time between like 2009-2012/13.
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Offline kirkl

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2023, 01:24:20 PM »
This year  muzzy we had two 342 cow tags in camp. Six hunters. We have hunted this unit for years.
We scouted in Sept. and counted 17 cows two with calves and one Spike in four days.

When the season opened we saw no elk until the last day when we came close on the cow tags.

I know guys who won’t go u less they draw a cow tag, because it isn’t worth hunting spikes.

Next year we may not hunt elk if one of us v doesn’t draw a cow tag.

Mule deer was no better.


Too much hunting of baby makers and predators is my thought. I would like to see a total ban on hunting cows for three years. And an increase on Predator hunting . :twocents:
Ive got a trail cam in 342 and had plenty of cows with calves on it. alot of fawns to.

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2023, 01:31:51 PM »
I don't think people realize but right here right now we are living the glory days of elk in the United States. Obviously there are certain areas that are seeing struggle ie the Blues, region 1 of MT, etc, but as a whole there are more elk now than there has been in the last century. Opportunity is abound so go out and get em :tup: the more we kill the fewer there are to compete for forage with Mule deer which we all know is the lords deer :hello:
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Offline Caseyd

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2023, 03:09:21 PM »
A crew running around with a 4 horse trailer (assuming tag holder), 2 regular camps and 2 cabins. Not a single person at touchet. 1 camp at Terpee. Cold and empty all week

Offline 270Flat

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2023, 07:08:54 PM »
It’s been tough watching the elk demise in the Blue’s. It’s in my back yard. Elk stay down low in the private property where the wolves don’t play. Don’t migrate back in the spring as they use to. Too many cougars and not enough harvest.
Haven’t been back to our camp in the Blue’s in 5 years. Last hunt was void of elk and full of wolf sign. Decided to move out of state. Fast forward and now we have two young boys (11,13) that had their first elk tags/camp. So we hit the old stomping grounds. Very few camps as we have encountered in the past. Was COLD! As we headed in early Friday morning there were wolf track’s running down the road. I thought here we go again. Ended up seeing a few herds of elk in our drainage. Several calves with them. One really nice mule deer buck. Sunday afternoon we saw the unicorn! A spike elk with the kids tags in their pocket. We made a play at them deep at their spot. My brother had them at 300 yards but too steep to see them. We played with them until dark and had to get back to camp to pack up. Fun time’s getting the kiddos out for their first elk encounter. They had fun and want to go back. Nice to see the positive side from the younger generation. No With lacrosse this weekend the season was short for us. Hoping he’s (spike) there for my brother who also has a tag for the weekend.
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Offline Coastie_Compton

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2023, 08:25:34 PM »
This year  muzzy we had two 342 cow tags in camp. Six hunters. We have hunted this unit for years.
We scouted in Sept. and counted 17 cows two with calves and one Spike in four days.

When the season opened we saw no elk until the last day when we came close on the cow tags.

I know guys who won’t go u less they draw a cow tag, because it isn’t worth hunting spikes.

Next year we may not hunt elk if one of us v doesn’t draw a cow tag.

Mule deer was no better.


Too much hunting of baby makers and predators is my thought. I would like to see a total ban on hunting cows for three years. And an increase on Predator hunting . :twocents:


I wouldn't give up on 342 that easy. Maybe try a different part :dunno: I spend a good bit of time in 342 and there is no shortage of elk. No shortage of elk in any of the yakima gmu's really. The Yakima herd is thriving at 11k animals. That's more elk than the region has ever had in its history except for a short window of time between like 2009-2012/13.

I second this, keep looking they are here and the numbers I have seen have been great.  Had a herd in there eating next to my truck when I got back from a hike. 

Offline highcountry_hunter

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Re: Elk camps no show
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2023, 08:43:03 AM »
I don't think people realize but right here right now we are living the glory days of elk in the United States. Obviously there are certain areas that are seeing struggle ie the Blues, region 1 of MT, etc, but as a whole there are more elk now than there has been in the last century. Opportunity is abound so go out and get em :tup: the more we kill the fewer there are to compete for forage with Mule deer which we all know is the lords deer :hello:
A lot of accuracy in this statement, especially the end bit about mule deer.

I remember as a kid in 90’s in the far NE corner, if you saw an elk it was a real treat and you didn’t dare tell a soul. Now they’re getting smoked by cars on 395 regularly.


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