What would you do?

[baldopepper]

Another little fact the wdfw could make more public.  They estimate there are 3600 mountain lions in the state.  Using the most accepted figure, each lion will kill.48 deer per year. That works out to approximately 173,000 deer per year.  They also estimate a deer population in the state of about 240000 animals. Hunters harvested roughly 60,000. Math doesn't look good for the deer herds.

That math obviously is wrong. Doesn't account for the 10s of thousands of deer being killed by other predators, Wolves, bears, and coyotes.  Then there are the thousands killed by cars. and last but not least, the 10s of thousands killed by hunters.  If your numbers were true, every deer in the State would be dead before the year was up and we wouldn't have to worry about them. Your numbers are way off, wherever you got them.

Go online and check them  out. These are the numbers as released by wdfw. I tend to agree they dont seem possible, but its their numbers. Not mine. I simply took their estimated  number on mt lion numbers and did the math based on several references as to kill per year per lion.  Total deer population numbers are also theirs. Granted, if you take their numbers and combine them with other predator, hunter kills and auto kills there shouldn't be a deer left in the state.

[NOCK NOCK]

Another little fact the wdfw could make more public.  They estimate there are 3600 mountain lions in the state.  Using the most accepted figure, each lion will kill.48 deer per year. That works out to approximately 173,000 deer per year.  They also estimate a deer population in the state of about 240000 animals. Hunters harvested roughly 60,000. Math doesn't look good for the deer herds.

That math obviously is wrong. Doesn't account for the 10s of thousands of deer being killed by other predators, Wolves, bears, and coyotes.  Then there are the thousands killed by cars. and last but not least, the 10s of thousands killed by hunters.  If your numbers were true, every deer in the State would be dead before the year was up and we wouldn't have to worry about them. Your numbers are way off, wherever you got them.

Go online and check them  out. These are the numbers as released by wdfw. I tend to agree they dont seem possible, but its their numbers. Not mine. I simply took their estimated  number on mt lion numbers and did the math based on several references as to kill per year per lion.  Total deer population numbers are also theirs. Granted, if you take their numbers and combine them with other predator, hunter kills and auto kills there shouldn't be a deer left in the state.

Both great points.

Obviously all numbers are best "guestimates"

Dominant predators kill their own and competing predators in all categories, as well as eat other non ungulate food sources= numbers most likely way too high in both populations, and kills.
Humans and their actions kill way more than just "legal harvest" = numbers way too low.

Which one do we have a better (and realistic) chance of controlling if we TRULY want the ungulates, and hunting to survive??

[fishngamereaper]

Since this is about deer hunting.

For starters East or West tags like elk.
Incentives for predator harvest. (Kill ten coyotes get a bonus point type thing.)

Most everything else has been covered.

[Antlershed]

Another little fact the wdfw could make more public.  They estimate there are 3600 mountain lions in the state.  Using the most accepted figure, each lion will kill.48 deer per year. That works out to approximately 173,000 deer per year.  They also estimate a deer population in the state of about 240000 animals. Hunters harvested roughly 60,000. Math doesn't look good for the deer herds.

That math obviously is wrong. Doesn't account for the 10s of thousands of deer being killed by other predators, Wolves, bears, and coyotes.  Then there are the thousands killed by cars. and last but not least, the 10s of thousands killed by hunters.  If your numbers were true, every deer in the State would be dead before the year was up and we wouldn't have to worry about them. Your numbers are way off, wherever you got them.

Go online and check them  out. These are the numbers as released by wdfw. I tend to agree they dont seem possible, but its their numbers. Not mine. I simply took their estimated  number on mt lion numbers and did the math based on several references as to kill per year per lion.  Total deer population numbers are also theirs. Granted, if you take their numbers and combine them with other predator, hunter kills and auto kills there shouldn't be a deer left in the state.

Just over 21k deer killed by hunters in 2022.

[nwwanderer]

Look back ten years, that number was 30,000+.  A great deal of diversity in WA, we can not manage as if is all the same. Manage locally, spend carefully and appoint a commission without a no consumption agenda.

[HUNTIN4SIX]

I don't think we can simply just regulate ourselves back to healthy populations.  Most of us think that way and throw out ideas.  The first thing i would do is force bio's to stop managing from their desks and get out and do some counts and interact with the user groups.  Then I would figure out who the wolves in sheep clothing are working in management.  We have many.  I would weed them out and start with non-biased management perspectives.  Why do we have an ungulate bio with predator tattoos married to a wolf bio?  (Just an observation)  NE WA wildlife managers have been in turmoil over the last 5 years (or more).  WDFW had to send the regional director to plant himself at the district office.  As far as the managing the decline in NE WA, lets start there....

[hunter399]

I don't think we can simply just regulate ourselves back to healthy populations.  Most of us think that way and throw out ideas.  The first thing i would do is force bio's to stop managing from their desks and get out and do some counts and interact with the user groups.  Then I would figure out who the wolves in sheep clothing are working in management.  We have many.  I would weed them out and start with non-biased management perspectives.  Why do we have an ungulate bio with predator tattoos married to a wolf bio?  (Just an observation)  NE WA wildlife managers have been in turmoil over the last 5 years (or more).  WDFW had to send the regional director to plant himself at the district office.  As far as the managing the decline in NE WA, lets start there....

Alot of our counts are done mid-summer is what I was told.
Never understood that ,cause you have surplus animals that time of year.
If they did counts I'm December or January,on public ground .
They could count them on there fingers .
Our biologist,the only good thing I've seen is no antlerless harvest.
After that  she won't support any APR for WT,Mule deer in the NE are slowly declining to extinction. 
It should be permit only for mule deer in NE WA or 4pt min across the board for WT and MD.

If you look back in 2014  , When we had 4pt min for WT.
You can look at three point harvest and estimate mule deer harvest.
Basically each GMU has less than a hundred mule deer harvested each year. Maybe 101 might have an ok harvest rate for mule deer.
They know MD harvest is almost nothing.They know it's declining.
Yet here we are still buying a tag for it.

When they did the predator/prey study ,they didn't collar MD in our area cause they couldn't find 100 mule deer to collar.
When you have an antlered harvest less than 100 animals.
We shouldn't be hunting mule deer in 117/121/113.
MD population is so low in these units,they should be an endangered species.

We need better management based on individual GMU needs across the whole state.

[HUNTIN4SIX]

I don't think we can simply just regulate ourselves back to healthy populations.  Most of us think that way and throw out ideas.  The first thing i would do is force bio's to stop managing from their desks and get out and do some counts and interact with the user groups.  Then I would figure out who the wolves in sheep clothing are working in management.  We have many.  I would weed them out and start with non-biased management perspectives.  Why do we have an ungulate bio with predator tattoos married to a wolf bio?  (Just an observation)  NE WA wildlife managers have been in turmoil over the last 5 years (or more).  WDFW had to send the regional director to plant himself at the district office.  As far as the managing the decline in NE WA, lets start there....

Alot of our counts are done mid-summer is what I was told.
Never understood that ,cause you have surplus animals that time of year.
If they did counts I'm December or January,on public ground .
They could count them on there fingers .
Our biologist,the only good thing I've seen is no antlerless harvest.
After that  she won't support any APR for WT,Mule deer in the NE are slowly declining to extinction. 
It should be permit only for mule deer in NE WA or 4pt min across the board for WT and MD.

Totally agree.  They don't do the counts they historically did.  I know the guy that was involved in counts in my area.  WDFW does very little counting anymore.  Kinda like they do very little population counts/studies on our lakes.

[baldopepper]

Another count I wonder about.  Estimate on line says WA has between 25-30000 bears
 Several studies on line estimate a bear will kill between 10-20 deer (predominantly fawns) per year. Assuming our bears are terrible hunters and only take 2 per year, the low number estimate would be 50 000 deer killed per year. When you start researching numbers things certainly don't add up very well. By their numbers, there are certainly more deer killed combined than they estimate we have. Kinda makes me wonder how we can make proper management decisions when we have numbers that suggest we have no deer left to manage.
 

[Taco280AI]

Would have to be tailored to specific areas, but as an overall general statement:

Resident and nonresident bear/cougar tags: $5
Bear/cougar bag limits: 10
Use of hounds permitted: yes.
Get the predators under control.

Doe (rifle) tags reduced or eliminated, area dependent. Let them drop fawns. Some archery goes to buck only, unit dependent.

No deer season begins before September 1st. All deer seasons end no later than Dec 15. They're pressured 24/7 by predators and have been chased by people for months, let them focus on winter survival.

Listen to the science and what actual biologists are telling me, adjust as necessary.

[hunter399]

All I know ,I've been running trail cams in NE Washington for almost ten years.
5-10 year ago ,I would never get a cougar on cam.
This year out of dozen cams , probably about 7/12 have a cat on them. Yes I do plan to setup and hunt a few.

But I went from almost never getting a pic of a cat.
Almost always getting a pic.
Wolves there,cats everywhere else.
Basically wolves have created competition,cats have filled the void everywhere else.
Seems like every track of land has some kind of apex predator.
Then some tracks of land have both.

[Bob33]

Another count I wonder about.  Estimate on line says WA has between 25-30000 bears
 Several studies on line estimate a bear will kill between 10-20 deer (predominantly fawns) per year. Assuming our bears are terrible hunters and only take 2 per year, the low number estimate would be 50 000 deer killed per year. When you start researching numbers things certainly don't add up very well. By their numbers, there are certainly more deer killed combined than they estimate we have. Kinda makes me wonder how we can make proper management decisions when we have numbers that suggest we have no deer left to manage.
 

Right. Cut legal hunting in half and save 10,000 deer. Hardly makes a dent into the deaths from predators.

[Mtnwalker]

Another count I wonder about.  Estimate on line says WA has between 25-30000 bears
 Several studies on line estimate a bear will kill between 10-20 deer (predominantly fawns) per year. Assuming our bears are terrible hunters and only take 2 per year, the low number estimate would be 50 000 deer killed per year. When you start researching numbers things certainly don't add up very well. By their numbers, there are certainly more deer killed combined than they estimate we have. Kinda makes me wonder how we can make proper management decisions when we have numbers that suggest we have no deer left to manage.
 

Right. Cut legal hunting in half and save 10,000 deer. Hardly makes a dent into the deaths from predators.

  Plus predators aren’t selective on which sex they kill. Lots of baby makers being wiped out

[hunter399]

Another count I wonder about.  Estimate on line says WA has between 25-30000 bears
 Several studies on line estimate a bear will kill between 10-20 deer (predominantly fawns) per year. Assuming our bears are terrible hunters and only take 2 per year, the low number estimate would be 50 000 deer killed per year. When you start researching numbers things certainly don't add up very well. By their numbers, there are certainly more deer killed combined than they estimate we have. Kinda makes me wonder how we can make proper management decisions when we have numbers that suggest we have no deer left to manage.
 

Right. Cut legal hunting in half and save 10,000 deer. Hardly makes a dent into the deaths from predators.

Even though cutting hunting by only allowing half the hunters to hunt each year. I mean it wouldn't bother me. I'd prefer to only have half the competition.
WDFW would never do it.
Only getting half the revenue each year is not an option.
The whole state will go permit only .
They can control harvest rates better ,make more revenue that way.

[HUNTIN4SIX]

I don't think we can simply just regulate ourselves back to healthy populations.  Most of us think that way and throw out ideas.  The first thing i would do is force bio's to stop managing from their desks and get out and do some counts and interact with the user groups.  Then I would figure out who the wolves in sheep clothing are working in management.  We have many.  I would weed them out and start with non-biased management perspectives.  Why do we have an ungulate bio with predator tattoos married to a wolf bio?  (Just an observation)  NE WA wildlife managers have been in turmoil over the last 5 years (or more).  WDFW had to send the regional director to plant himself at the district office.  As far as the managing the decline in NE WA, lets start there....

Alot of our counts are done mid-summer is what I was told.
Never understood that ,cause you have surplus animals that time of year.
If they did counts I'm December or January,on public ground .
They could count them on there fingers .
Our biologist,the only good thing I've seen is no antlerless harvest.
After that  she won't support any APR for WT,Mule deer in the NE are slowly declining to extinction. 
It should be permit only for mule deer in NE WA or 4pt min across the board for WT and MD.

If you look back in 2014  , When we had 4pt min for WT.
You can look at three point harvest and estimate mule deer harvest.
Basically each GMU has less than a hundred mule deer harvested each year. Maybe 101 might have an ok harvest rate for mule deer.
They know MD harvest is almost nothing.They know it's declining.
Yet here we are still buying a tag for it.

When they did the predator/prey study ,they didn't collar MD in our area cause they couldn't find 100 mule deer to collar.
When you have an antlered harvest less than 100 animals.
We shouldn't be hunting mule deer in 117/121/113.
MD population is so low in these units,they should be an endangered species.

We need better management based on individual GMU needs across the whole state.

Hunted/hiked all over 101 this year and saw 1 MD.  It just so happen to be a nice buck, probably should have let it breed, but my 14yr old shot it.  The buck was in the rocks at 6500 feet with wolf tracks all around the mountain.  This state has so much good habitat to support large populations of MD and Whitetail.