Over shooting?⁹

[baldopepper]

Did a little final look around my general area yesterday. Saw 28 whitetails, not a single buck and, perhaps more alarming, only 4 fawns.  Been seeing that pretty much all year. Just way to many dry does and this time of year no bucks chasing em. Around the house I've got the usual herd of about 40 muledeer and there are 18 fawns and at least 4 bucks chasing the does. If it was just predators I'd see the figures more equal. Honestly, I think we're way overharvesting the whitetail bucks in the area.  Kids saw a few whitetail.bucks during the hunt, shot 3 decent ones but also said they saw a lot more does unaccompanied by a buck than usual. Saw 5 hunters with deer, 4  spikes and 1 small 3x.  Not sure if an apr would help, but I beleive our buck to doe ratio is way out of whack, and that's with seeing way less does than usual. Now we're gonna have another  go at em with a 20.day late archery hunt. Nearly 4 months of pressure on these bucks with a shoot any buck regulation is just too much in my opinion

 
 

 
 


 

 
 
 
 

[jrebel]

I would agree, except the buck to doe ratio is decent or above average in areas of large private tracts of land and the fawn recruitment is still garbage.   Predators are the bigger issue without a doubt.  I have pics to prove it. 

Kill predators and this problem will fix itself

[baldopepper]

Well, I know they're a problem but even on the large tracts of private property  vaugen and Dashiell properties, I'm seeing the same thing.  Way too many dry does and and way fewer bucks than in the past.  Mule deer ratios seem to be holding pretty steady.  Don't get me wrong, I know the lion population is way out of control around us, but these long seasons  of shooting any whitetail  buck are compounding the problem.

[hunter399]

Fawn survival is definitely a predator problem.
All other problems can be associated with human causes.

[baldopepper]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

[jrebel]

I guess this is where our experiences differ.  First year of owning our property only buck we had was a spike.   Literally…..only buck we saw on camera.   Had plenty of does, but only saw one spike, even during the rut.   

5-6 years later, the doe population is down (mostly from blue tongue) and the buck population is up substantially (not to where I would like it to be, but is significantly better than 5-6 years ago).  The does are pregnant and the babies are decimated within days to weeks of being born.  Fawn recruitment is stupid low in our area.   

Only change I have seen or been a part of is…..increased number of wolves, increased number of cats, increased number of bears!!  Landowners are still hunting them and average kill numbers are being reported.   We are not on public land so I know my perception is skewed, because we don’t have an over harvest issue.   

30 years ago this same area had more liberal hunting dates. As well it had a lot more hunters and the deer numbers were booming.  Only change between then and now was predators.   How would one explain this? 
 

[baldopepper]

Actually have a lot more hunters in the area now.  Never used to see archery hunters or muzzy hunters and the late hunt had maybe a third of what you see now.  Don't know how much you get out on the public pieces,  but they were packed this week. Side by sides and quads were everywhere, and all those recent little hunting cabin sites seemed to have at least 2 or 3 rigs parked around them. Used to see hunters on that late hunt, but not like these last few years

[bigmacc]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

The buck - doe ratio could be an issue but something else that goes with growing predator populations is the stress factors that a deer has to cope with 24/7/365. Stress and increasing stress does disrupt breeding. And can affect fawn crops, not only from predation of the fawns but does just not getting bred.

[hunter399]

Actually have a lot more hunters in the area now.  Never used to see archery hunters or muzzy hunters and the late hunt had maybe a third of what you see now.  Don't know how much you get out on the public pieces,  but they were packed this week. Side by sides and quads were everywhere, and all those recent little hunting cabin sites seemed to have at least 2 or 3 rigs parked around them. Used to see hunters on that late hunt, but not like these last few years

I agree pretty packed this last week. For sure

[hunter399]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

I'm not saying true or not.
But our biologist would have you believe every doe that goes into heat gets pregnant.

Even if that was true ,that every doe gets pregnant.
How many are aborted from many factors.
Predator,multiseason, just constant pressure,more recreational users throughout the year.
Closing down areas ,and locking roads for winter wildlife would be a start. I'm talking roads that are traditional open year round.

Predator season just started today in my mind
How many are planning trips to go predator hunting,just as they would deer hunting. How many hunters did you see today.
All the people that traveled here for deer are not coming back or sticking around for predator hunting.

We have the ability to fix some problems with seasons, regulations, predator hunting.

[baldopepper]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

I'm not saying true or not.
But our biologist would have you believe every doe that goes into heat gets pregnant.

Even if that was true ,that every doe gets pregnant.
How many are aborted from many factors.
Predator,multiseason, just constant pressure,more recreational users throughout the year.
Closing down areas ,and locking roads for winter wildlife would be a start. I'm talking roads that are traditional open year round.

Predator season just started today in my mind
How many are planningrips to go predator hunting,just as they would deer hunting. How many hunters didou see today.
All the people that traveled here for deer are not coming back or sticking around for predator huntinitg.

We have the ability to fix some problems with seasons, regulations, predator hunting.

All good points, lot of factors for sure.  While I'm not totally sold on aprs, I do know mule deer ratios are good and we saw a ton of small mule deer bucks this past week. Only thing different Round us is 3 point minimum on mule deer and any buck on whitetail. By far the majority of whitetails shot in our area are spikes or small forks.  I also know the number of hunters increased dramatically when they dropped the apr on whitetail
 
 
 

[hunter399]

Don't need to worry about fawn survival when the does dont get bred and have no fawn, that's what has me concerned.  I've been chasing deer around there for a little over 30 years and this last 4-5  have seen a very steep drop in the buck/doe ratio in the whitetail. Aside from the predators knocking down numbers, I also think a lot of does just aren't getting bred.
 
I

I'm not saying true or not.
But our biologist would have you believe every doe that goes into heat gets pregnant.

Even if that was true ,that every doe gets pregnant.
How many are aborted from many factors.
Predator,multiseason, just constant pressure,more recreational users throughout the year.
Closing down areas ,and locking roads for winter wildlife would be a start. I'm talking roads that are traditional open year round.

Predator season just started today in my mind
How many are planningrips to go predator hunting,just as they would deer hunting. How many hunters didou see today.
All the people that traveled here for deer are not coming back or sticking around for predator huntinitg.

We have the ability to fix some problems with seasons, regulations, predator hunting.

All good points, lot of factors for sure.  While I'm not totally sold on aprs, I do know mule deer ratios are good and we saw a ton of small mule deer bucks this past week. Only thing different Round us is 3 point minimum on mule deer and any buck on whitetail. By far the majority of whitetails shot in our area are spikes or small forks.  I also know the number of hunters increased dramatically when they dropped the apr on whitetail no
 
 
 

I'm not exactly sure what year mult-season kicked in.
2014 was the last year with an APR for WT.
Thought multiseason started just a few years before.
Even though your not seeing them,there are more bucks than the eye may see.
They have evolved a bit through the years to survive.
I can't say everything on this site.(hunting secrets)
Public land goes, can't hunt the rut if there are no doe on public.
Same goes ....
Even if a doe is hot , doesn't always mean there is a buck near by.
I'll try to explain best I can.
You know how the guys from the coast always say black tail are ghosts.
Same goes for WT ,the big ones are ghosts.
I mean to trail cams,trails ,patterns,daylight, breeding.all kinds of stuff. That's why you see the smaller one getting shot.
Just trust me when I say they have evolved to adopt to hunting season.
Give it a week or so, you'll start to see them move a bit.

[baldopepper]

Hope you're right, but they better not move to much because wdfw in their wisdom figured the archery guys needed another 20 days to chase em.

[buckcanyonlodge]

Well, I know they're a problem but even on the large tracts of private property  vaugen and Dashiell properties, I'm seeing the same thing.  Way too many dry does and and way fewer bucks than in the past. Mule deer ratios seem to be holding pretty steady.  Don't get me wrong, I know the lion population is way out of control around us, but these long seasons  of shooting any whitetail  buck are compounding the problem.

Mule deer ratios are NOT holding steady where I am...and that's only 6 miles to the north of you. There are only 7 does in the local herd that used to be 25 does.      3 fawns and NO bucks in the present herd. One traveling buck finally showed up (2 point) to breed the 7 does. I had one 3 point whitetail buck that disappeared the day before opening day and only 3 does. WAY down in numbers. I say limit the tags or close the season here to give the herds a breather..and open up predator kills. I have never seen so many hunters as I have seen this year. Even had 3 guys in orange set up 20 feet from my mail box.  looking toward my house. Had two encounters with house shooters in the early hunt.

[hunter399]

Hope you're right, but they better not move to much because wdfw in their wisdom figured the archery guys needed another 20 days to chase em.

Yup, archery starts right after Thanksgiving.
There still gonna be a little sketchy then.
By December they'll lose up a bit