1x scopes vs open sights

[duckmen1]

All seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law

ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology.   That's the point.  You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different.  That is what the issue is.

At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc.   Its a numbers game.   

There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.   

Everyone has an anecdotal story.  Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls.  That's tradition as I see it.   Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots?  Don't know.     

I am still am trying to figure out how 1x scope is such a fear factor to put in a muzzleloader season for you guys. You all in favor on here a few years back on 209s and closed breach plugs. Which I didn't use and still don't. Makes so much more reliable gun. Archery was supposed to be primative. Yet we now have expandable broadheads which make tuning factors less of an issue. Lighted knocks which make recovery of arrows and such for recovery of game easier. Modern rifles have range finding capabilities to transer to scope on sig products. Yet the fear of our game population lies on a dot on a lense instead of a dot on the tip of the gun. Not like I am saying add a 24 power scope to a muzzleloader. But everyone seems to act like that is what I am saying. Are you all feeling that everyone will be successful because looking down a 1x scope vs 1 power open site?

I still think you as well as others are fighting each other as sportsman and not building what we are loosing as sportsman. One day you say we need to band together. The next you put a hunter down for harvesting a lesser quality animal in your eyes as an outdoorsman.

More less my argument on this topic is becoming less and less about whether we should allow 1x scopes and more and more about how we are fighting each other.

And with that you obviously haven’t looked through a 1x dot versus open sights.

And with that I can also almost garentee most complaining on this rule change are using 209s and closed breach systems, and sabot bullets. Making their muzzleloader the most effective they can within the law as written. But claim primitive. Funny part about this whole subject is I am still using loose pyrodex powder and plunger design, musket caps, etc.

I still look at harvest reports in areas like Chelan for deer with a muzzy. It is laughable at best at how poor and how few people do it there. And modern guys feel the threat of those few muzzy hunters. Which is even more laughable that they fear 1x site when they are shooting 500 to 1000 plus yard shots.


Agree to disagree. Even if the law passed. You still can stay primitive within the law. If you want to stay primitive even if the law passed then why don’t you. Why are folks using 209s and closed breech, and sabot bullets but claim primitive.

If the law passes fine, if not that’s fine too. It won’t change how I hunt.

[Bob33]

It is interesting that many of the individuals supporting the use of 1x scopes claim that it won’t improve harvest. If you can be as effective without a 1x scope as you can be with one, why would you want to use one?

I’m opposed to the idea with one caveat: we are losing hunters from our ranks, and particularly so with older hunters. The percentage of our state’s population that hunts is around three to four percent and dropping. I think the ability to use a 1x scope would keep more hunters engaged who otherwise might stop hunting.

If they become legal I would probably use one. I also believe it would result in some hunters shifting from modern to muzzleloader, and overall muzzleloader harvest would increase.

[BULLBLASTER]

All seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law

ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology.   That's the point.  You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different.  That is what the issue is.

At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc.   Its a numbers game.   

There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.   

Everyone has an anecdotal story.  Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls.  That's tradition as I see it.   Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots?  Don't know.     

I am still am trying to figure out how 1x scope is such a fear factor to put in a muzzleloader season for you guys. You all in favor on here a few years back on 209s and closed breach plugs. Which I didn't use and still don't. Makes so much more reliable gun. Archery was supposed to be primative. Yet we now have expandable broadheads which make tuning factors less of an issue. Lighted knocks which make recovery of arrows and such for recovery of game easier. Modern rifles have range finding capabilities to transer to scope on sig products. Yet the fear of our game population lies on a dot on a lense instead of a dot on the tip of the gun. Not like I am saying add a 24 power scope to a muzzleloader. But everyone seems to act like that is what I am saying. Are you all feeling that everyone will be successful because looking down a 1x scope vs 1 power open site?

I still think you as well as others are fighting each other as sportsman and not building what we are loosing as sportsman. One day you say we need to band together. The next you put a hunter down for harvesting a lesser quality animal in your eyes as an outdoorsman.

More less my argument on this topic is becoming less and less about whether we should allow 1x scopes and more and more about how we are fighting each other.

And with that you obviously haven’t looked through a 1x dot versus open sights.

And with that I can also almost garentee most complaining on this rule change are using 209s and closed breach systems, and sabot bullets. Making their muzzleloader the most effective they can within the law as written. But claim primitive. Funny part about this whole subject is I am still using loose pyrodex powder and plunger design, musket caps, etc.

I still look at harvest reports in areas like Chelan for deer with a muzzy. It is laughable at best at how poor and how few people do it there. And modern guys feel the threat of those few muzzy hunters. Which is even more laughable that they fear 1x site when they are shooting 500 to 1000 plus yard shots.


Agree to disagree. Even if the law passed. You still can stay primitive within the law. If you want to stay primitive even if the law passed then why don’t you. Why are folks using 209s and closed breech, and sabot bullets but claim primitive.

If the law passes fine, if not that’s fine too. It won’t change how I hunt.

Why does our opinion have to be one or the other? Yes i have a nuzzleloader that has a sealed breech and uses sabots and 209s, because its legal. If this rule changes, you can bet that i will also have an optical scope on my muzzy, because i can.
At the same time, i wish the state would roll back all the rule advancements with muzzys and require side locks, and bore diameter lead.

Are we no longer allowed opinions, while at the same time maximizing what our rules will allow?

[duckmen1]

All seem to keep avoiding the question. What harm comes from passing the 1x scope law

ITs a line the sand, somewhere at some point there has to be a line between primitive and traditional versus technology.   That's the point.  You can be stubborn about it, or maybe your line in the sand is different.  That is what the issue is.

At some point, you will be down to a three day season etc.   Its a numbers game.   

There really isn't much primitive about todays muzzelloader.   

Everyone has an anecdotal story.  Mine is an 80 year old man with his homemade front stuffer out in the rain chasing bulls.  That's tradition as I see it.   Maybe we draw the line at heat seeking sabots?  Don't know.     

I am still am trying to figure out how 1x scope is such a fear factor to put in a muzzleloader season for you guys. You all in favor on here a few years back on 209s and closed breach plugs. Which I didn't use and still don't. Makes so much more reliable gun. Archery was supposed to be primative. Yet we now have expandable broadheads which make tuning factors less of an issue. Lighted knocks which make recovery of arrows and such for recovery of game easier. Modern rifles have range finding capabilities to transer to scope on sig products. Yet the fear of our game population lies on a dot on a lense instead of a dot on the tip of the gun. Not like I am saying add a 24 power scope to a muzzleloader. But everyone seems to act like that is what I am saying. Are you all feeling that everyone will be successful because looking down a 1x scope vs 1 power open site?

I still think you as well as others are fighting each other as sportsman and not building what we are loosing as sportsman. One day you say we need to band together. The next you put a hunter down for harvesting a lesser quality animal in your eyes as an outdoorsman.

More less my argument on this topic is becoming less and less about whether we should allow 1x scopes and more and more about how we are fighting each other.

And with that you obviously haven’t looked through a 1x dot versus open sights.

And with that I can also almost garentee most complaining on this rule change are using 209s and closed breach systems, and sabot bullets. Making their muzzleloader the most effective they can within the law as written. But claim primitive. Funny part about this whole subject is I am still using loose pyrodex powder and plunger design, musket caps, etc.

I still look at harvest reports in areas like Chelan for deer with a muzzy. It is laughable at best at how poor and how few people do it there. And modern guys feel the threat of those few muzzy hunters. Which is even more laughable that they fear 1x site when they are shooting 500 to 1000 plus yard shots.


Agree to disagree. Even if the law passed. You still can stay primitive within the law. If you want to stay primitive even if the law passed then why don’t you. Why are folks using 209s and closed breech, and sabot bullets but claim primitive.

If the law passes fine, if not that’s fine too. It won’t change how I hunt.

Why does our opinion have to be one or the other? Yes i have a nuzzleloader that has a sealed breech and uses sabots and 209s, because its legal. If this rule changes, you can bet that i will also have an optical scope on my muzzy, because i can.
At the same time, i wish the state would roll back all the rule advancements with muzzys and require side locks, and bore diameter lead.

Are we no longer allowed opinions, while at the same time maximizing what our rules will allow?

We can all have opinions. Everyone is affected differently by the rule change or no rule change. I clearly said if you see the law pass and you want to stay primitive you can. If the law passes and you want to use the 1x scope more power to you. I don’t feel this law is the deciding factor to force one to use a 1x scope if they want to stay primitive. If someone wants to make the switch from modern to muzzy with a 1x scope great. Now they just lost yardage to shoot an animal making the switch as a muzzy doesn’t typically have the capability to shoot the same distance that modern can.
With that said I feel the overall increase in harvest would be more substantial in an elk season then a deer season do to popularity reasons and season timing. Also maybe the animals shot at may have a better recovery so another animal is not shot at after loosing a prior animal by said hunter. Maybe it will make it worse. Who knows. Success rates hopefully will shed a little light on that. But the biggest factor still is there. The hardest one of them all for most hunters. You still have to be successful in finding your target animal to take a shot.

Hearing folks complain that this will see a future reduction in hunting seasons reminds me of the excitement level east side folks were at in seeing increase season length and added tags for bears in 2019. Now the state commission is using that against the whole state for increased harvest. This state commission has agendas toward hunters clearly. And it is a sad state of affairs we are seeing with our game numbers. But there are so many more factors to why our animal numbers aren’t where they should be more so than a 1x sight on a muzzleloader. Right or wrong with that rule change our commission does not want to see thriving populations of ungulates. Which is sad to see. And they are using hunters against themselves in shutting down seasons or piecing it out.

So many variables and so many different opinions and thoughts to the matter is what makes this a great discussion. And yes I love the idea of a truly primitive season. That is where my roots started. I loved it. I love more primitive archery too. And can say I love when modern wasn’t seeing videos of hunters shooting across canyons 800 to 1200 yards too. I enjoy working for your animal in different ways than some. I enjoy stalking up close. That is what gets my excitement up. Some people have different views and like it the complete opposite. Great for them and their abilities to hunt differently and put a different kind of work in.

[SuperX]

before the invention and widespread use of cartridges, were scopes widely used for muzzleloaders?  Just wondering as it seems like iron sights are a different skill set entirely.  no point to make here, just curious if we're crossing a boundary.

[GWP]

And the best part, regardless if they change the law, is IF one stays 'primitive' then that person has the right and obligation to disparage anyone using any item they do not feel falls into their definition of primitive!
No clothing not harvested and tanned by the person themselves, no powder not created by the person themselves, no lead not mined by the person themselves. The list is nearly endless! Think about how much fun that will be!

[SuperX]

And the best part, regardless if they change the law, is IF one stays 'primitive' then that person has the right and obligation to disparage anyone using any item they do not feel falls into their definition of primitive!
No clothing not harvested and tanned by the person themselves, no powder not created by the person themselves, no lead not mined by the person themselves. The list is nearly endless! Think about how much fun that will be!

Seen plenty of guys dressed in leathers hunting.  the whole ad absurdum argument approach doesn't really solve anything but it is amusing.  maybe instead of primitive we should say pre-historic and break out the atlatls!

[Pathfinder101]

WDFW should have a "Squat Naked In The Bushes Next To A Trail With A Sharp Stick" category for Quality Elk. 

I'm putting in for the Colockum because it has the best odds with only 3,245 applicants...

[JakeLand]

If I’m hunting the coast in the thick “jungle” I’ll stay open sights if I’m hunting clear cuts and reprod I’ll be using my other muzzy with the 1X scope

[dilleytech]

Looks like red dots and 1x scopes are now legal. I guess I need to shop around for another red dot.

[swanderek]

1x scopes opens a big can of worms. Before if you saw a scope on a muzzy during the muzzy season you knew that’s a no go. Now you opened Pandora’s box with having a scope on your muzzy.
I bet you start seeing more guys with 3-9x in their muzzleloader soon.

[logola512c]

Looks like red dots and 1x scopes are now legal. I guess I need to shop around for another red dot.

I saw on another thread (I looked but couldn't find it) where someone suggested that a red dot would have trouble holding zero on a muzzy because of the violent recoil of a muzzy compared to say, a 9mm pistol.  Do folks agree with that?  I would think the opposite would be true.  Seems to me that if a red dot can stay zeroed on a slide that literally blows back a couple inches every shot that it could stay zeroed on top of a heavier rifle.   But I'm kind of a muzzy and red dot retard.  Double whammy stupid, one might say...

[Cougeyes]

I ended up picking up a 1x Vortex Crossfire scope. The obvious is it provides a little better field of view than say a Williams Peep. Out at 100-150 yds, crosshairs still cover up a large portion of the target, similar to open sights. Overall i'm happy with it and i think it'll be better for me than open sights.

[bearpaw]

With the proposal for 1x scopes looking like more of a possibility this year, I'm curious if anyone has experience using them. Do you see a benefit of 1x scope over open sights like a Williams Peep sights.

My dad started me shooting scoped rifles at a very young age, I've never shot open sights very well as compared. I've used 1x scopes a few times and it just seemed more user friendly than open sights. I would say it depends what works best for each individual. And definitely is a person has vision issues open sights are nearly unusable for accurate shooting.

[James]

I ended up picking up a 1x Vortex Crossfire scope. The obvious is it provides a little better field of view than say a Williams Peep. Out at 100-150 yds, crosshairs still cover up a large portion of the target, similar to open sights. Overall i'm happy with it and i think it'll be better for me than open sights.

IIRC That Vortex crossfire has a 2MOA dot, are you thinking you would prefer a red dot that had a 1MOA dot?

I am waffling between a 1 MOA dot and 2 MOA dot.