Seeking Advice on Purchase of a Used, Light SUV

[ivarhusa]

Guys,

I know this aint a motor-head site, but you are known for opinions.  

Sometime this coming year, I hope to upgrade my hunting rig from an Intrepid (hey, it has a big trunk) to sometheing that gets decent mileage and has useful 4WD. I won't be crawling up short-wheelbase trails, but it has to have decent enough ground clearance that the usual ruts and puddles along dirt roads won't hang it up.

I am thinking along the lines of a 4-Runner or smaller and cheaper.  I am not looking at the moment for a specific vehicle to purchase (I have some prep-work to do with the wife), but just recommendations.

Are there vehicles that I should avoid?  Are there under-appreciated gems out there?

I especially want sure-footedness on ordinary snow and ice.  I want to get further away from town in winter, when the coyote hides are prime. (Coyotes, so you see why I don't need a full-size rig.)

Thanks in advance for advice that is offered.

Ivar

[Kain]

I dont own one but my friend swears by his Trooper.  I looked into getting one but have not yet.  People that have them have nothing but good things to say about them.   

[WDFW-SUX]

subaru forester?

[saylean]

Im down with the 4runner, since that is what I have. I bought a 1995, for 3K. I think it is hard to go wrong with most toyotas. I know the 90-94 toyotas had a head gasket recall...(since i had one back then) but other than that..

Im not much of a gear head. If it runs ok and does what I need, I am happy. If fit my spring bear in the back no troubles.
Good luck on the search.

[coop2424]

I personally would go with a 4Runner but I am a Toyota fan since owning my tundra.  There is also the nissan Xterras but it really depends in my mind what price range you are looking at.  The toyotas seem the hold their value the best and are still pretty spendy even when they are older.

[Timberstalker]

TOYOTA

[littlebuf]

go with a 4runner late 80's early 90's. there is usually a lot to choose from once you start shopping

[littlebuf]

took me 5 seconds to find this one

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/1226646847.html

[jackelope]

you can't go wrong with a toyota for sure.

another one to consider is a jeep liberty or cherokee depending on how much $$ you want to spend and how old you want it to be.

[toyman2]

i am a gear head and i say youllnever go wrong with a toyota.
toyota only had a problem with head gaskets in the 90s with the V-6s the 4cyl were just fine.
cherokees are a very good rig for the money,nissan are tuff.
if you stay between late 80s and late 90s you should be able to find somthing good for $2-3000

[Bean Counter]

I love my '05 Toyo Tundra but you're looking for an SUV so I would say a 4Runner or maybe a Highlander.

I'll also second the Subaru Forrester, as the all time, all wheel drive can't be beat.

[ICEMAN]

Ok, we have heard from enough Toyota guys.... 

Ivar, we have had two Ford Explorers since 1999. Great cheap SUV. I have used them to get up high in snow country to snowshoe each winter since 1999. We have towed light duty trailers, boats, hunted and fished out of them. No aftermarket modifications to do all this, and have pulled idiots out of snowy ditches when we head up snowshoeing a dozen times, with no broken drivetrain issues...even a huge F350 stuck in a ditch with bald tires and an empty bed...  We still have one explorer plus an expedition, and I have never had to perform drivetrain, transmission, or engine repairs with any  of them. The expedition has an occasional differential noise I have had looked at, must be the positraction making its normal noise...

[alecvg]

Toyota 4runner, or a Nissan Xtera..  the two I would get..

[Wanttohuntmore]

I have an 08 Tundra, got rid of an 02 Tacoma, prior rig was a 91 Toyota pickup.  All were fine.  Also wife has an 02 xterra, also fairly good, but just developed a head gasket leak at 60k, leaks coolent onto the outside of the block.  I'm not as concerned with that leak as I would if it was going internal into the oil.  The Tacomas and Xterra get between 15-19 to be realistic, I've had much worse and better, but outside the bell curve to be mentioned.  My Tundra is getting about 13-16.  I keep hearing great things about the all wheel drive Honda CRV.  I would consider one of those if you're not doing rutted roads.  I think it'd be fine for most of my winter coyote expeditions.  Also, the Forester like others mentioned.  I had an old 87 Subaru, avg mpg was 22 in that old carburated problem.  Loved the car, it just did not love me, always had overheating probs with it.  Other than that it drove great.  Hope this helps a little.  I always find people giving crazy stories about their mpg, but coming from an accountant, I'm pretty exact/anal about knowing my mpg.

[Bean Counter]

I always find people giving crazy stories about their mpg, but coming from an accountant, I'm pretty exact/anal about knowing my mpg.

Do you do have an Excel spreadsheet, too? Finally, another bean counter on the board.  I'm in recovery. 

And a Subaru owner, to boot.

[ivarhusa]

I am not the "bean counter" some of you are, but my intention is to estimate the difference in gas (operating) cost for whatever several car-buying options I have, and factor that into the price I am willing to pay for a vehicle.  I wish I knew reliably about ALL operating costs, maintenance included, but "gas" is one good factor to know about.  I hear about "reliability" for the Toyota's, so I would "take a little off" the gu-estimated operating cost for that line.

I drive about 15,000 miles per year.  Taking what I hope is a conservative value for an average gas cost for the next 5 years of $3.50 per gallon, I come up with an annual gas cost of $2,386 for a "base-line" value of 22 mpg. Now, to compare all other MPG options to this, I come up with:

• 20 mpg costs me $238 per year more
• 18 mpg costs me 530 per year more
• 16 mpg costs me $894 per year more
• 14 mpg costs me $1363 per year more

If I assume a 5% annual discount rate and a five year life of my investment, I get these values for the "premium to be paid" for accepting less than 22 mpg (and that was an arbitrary "good" number to shoot for):

• 20 mpg will add $1,033 to the "cost" of my "new" vehicle.
• 18 mpg will add $2,295 to the "cost" of my "new" vehicle.
• 16 mpg will add $3,874 to the "cost" of my "new" vehicle.
• 14 mpg will add $5,903 to the "cost" of my "new" vehicle.

These numbers suggest how much of a "good deal" I would need to get in order to cover the additional gas expense. How am I doing, bean counters?  (Is 5% a useful number?  Is 5 years a realistic time frame?) These 'costs' can also be offset by differential 'perceived utility'. I should be willing to pay more for added cargo volume, or ground clearance. (Yeah, I am leaning away from the CRV-class of vehicle, as nice as they are for most roads.)

As for tracking MPG week-to-week, I don't do it.  I don't figure it provides enough insight into possible maintenance needs to justify the effort.  How many times a year do you need reminding that your Land Cruiser gets 12 mpg in the city? (As mine did.)

Ivar

[/list]

[jackelope]

if you pick a vehicle i can tell you how much 15k/30k/etc services cost...maintenance intervals, etc.
if you're looking at 4 runner-cherokee and other like sized 6 cylinder powered vehicles, you should expect 16-18mpg normal driving and low 20's on the highway.
what do you mean by this statement?

As for tracking MPG week-to-week, I don't do it.  I don't figure it provides enough insight into possible maintenance needs to justify the effort.

[JackOfAllTrades]

Yeah, we heard from the 'Yota' fans.

Not quite indestructable. Good bang for the buck for many versions. True offroaders hate the later models with IFS.

I'm a Ford guy, and since you said that you're not a bean counter, then my choice is a full sized truck. (4x4 PowerStrokeDiesel)  I almost bought a Dodge Cummins but they didn't offer zero percent financing at the time.

I say full sized because you've got so much more room to haul gear and game.

Sure, my truck costs more, (hell, the engine was a $5,000 option), but it does average 17.5mpg and has gotten up to 21mpg on the freeway. (I've kept a log book since day one.) Will tow my 30' camp trailer up any paved hill. Towing, I get about 15mpg when running across the passes. So, if you think you'd ever want to get a camp trailer for your hunting excursions then you need to think bigger rig.

All that said, the wife has had Jeep Cherokees for the last 12 years. Love'm! Very capable rig. I'm sure there are supporters for Nissan Pathfinder out there too. Also capable rigs.

If you're on a budget...
My son loves his older good running Bronco II.  TURNS ON A FRIGGIN DIME. With a little lift and set of good tires, these go anywhere you need to. Make sure you stay away from any carburated versions.  Can't rule out an early Explorer. The later model Ex's sit too low. Ford's 4.0L was a good engine. Stay away from anything that says Cheby S10.

If you aren't thinking about a full sized truck or are willing to sway away from an SUV, then a Dodge Dakota would be worth looking at. V8 versions, the rear end is a weak link.

My  
-Steve

[ivarhusa]

what do you mean by this statement?

As for tracking MPG week-to-week, I don't do it.  I don't figure it provides enough insight into possible maintenance needs to justify the effort.

I believe MPG data are useful when picking a vehicle, but once you own the vehicle, there isn't much you can do to affect it.  So why measure miles drive and fuel consumed? In days gone by, decreasing mileage tended to indicate a tuneup was due.  But these days we  have much longer maintenance intervals, because the electronic ignition is so reliable and effective. (For what it is worth, I also don't balance my checkbook.  Go figure.)

[whacker1]

Like Ice we have a Ford Explorer.  I don't take it hunting, but over the last couple of crazy winters we have had in Spokane it has been put through the test both in clearance, holding the road, etc.  I like it a lot.  4.0 litre v6 at 220 horsepower. 

My other rig is a 97 F150, which barely has more horsepower.  This is the rig that goes hunting.

[EastWaViking]

Nissan xterra's are pretty nice and built on a frontier frame so they have good clearance.  That might be my next rig.

[oneezreiter]

I have had 2 ford explorers with the 4L, and have had great luck with both of them.  I had a Jeep Liberty and hated it, gas milage was horrible.  I averaged only 13 mpg. 

[Wanttohuntmore]

I had a Jeep Liberty and hated it, gas milage was horrible.  I averaged only 13 mpg. 

I'm amazed that was all you got with the Liberty.  What kind of driving was it?  My in-laws avg around 18 with theres, and get low 20's on the highway.  I also had 3 jeep cherokees, 2 with the 4.0, and one of the old 2.5 4 cyl.  All of them got over 200K miles, engines were fantastic in all of them, I'd even venture to say I would trust one of them over any Toyota.  They did have quirks though, the brakes sucked in them, and the water pumps on the 4.0's give out.  Spent 5 hours waitin for a tow truck on Vantage hill in 95 degree weather.  All we had to drink was warm beer, seriously.  Needless to say, my wife and dog were happy, I was thirsty.....

[cully]

Something wrong with that liberty, should be around 17-18mpg. ivarhusa toys, nissans and jeeps are all great vehicles and will last beyond 200k-300k with proper maint. I saw the jeep dealership here in town with some great sales on the liberty's. May not be as capable as some other models but I doubt there is anything out there with the longevity, features and capabilities for 13-14k.

[jackelope]

i worked in the service dept at the jeep dealership for +/- 7 years and if a liberty was only getting 13mpg there was either something wrong with the car or your math.
they are great cars, 2nd in reliability to the cherokees and wranglers IMO. the  3.7L is a good motor for a liberty sized vehicle. my wife's grand cherokee has a 3.7 in it and that car is too big and it's a gutless turd. it's too bad the 2.8CRD diesel in the liberty turned out to have some issues because it is an awesome powerplant for that vehicle.


4.0L water pumps go south, but so do pretty much a lot of water pumps. usually they give some warning by making some noise or a slow leak or something along those lines...5.2 v8 water pumps went bad more often than the 4.0 inline 6 did.

[Skyvalhunter]

Is that because so much of that surpentine belt rides on the water pump thus causing extra pressure on the bearings?

[cully]

ya, waterpumps, radiators and starters do give out on jeeps around 100k, all can be bought aftermarket for around a $100 each and are easy fixes if you are mechanically inclined. I really wouldn't let that deter you since we are taking around 100k miles! All vehicles need replacement parts with that many miles.

[jackelope]

Is that because so much of that surpentine belt rides on the water pump thus causing extra pressure on the bearings?

the bearings fail making them piss out of the peehole in the bottom of the pump. we used to see a lot of water pumps go south after a belt was replaced...but that's not strictly jeeps...that'll happen everywhere. water pumps leak out of the peehole on the bottom of the pump because the bearings get loose, wears on the internal seals and lets them leak.

[ivarhusa]

I am paying attention, guys.  I had "the talk" with my wife about a new vehicle, and if it comes out of "my money" she is OK with it.  So, I am officially (or at least openly) looking to buy.

Ivar

[JackOfAllTrades]

Do you do have an Excel spreadsheet, too?

While I'm not a 'Bean Counter' in the profession, I don't keep a spread sheet current, but I do keep a log book in the console of the truck. Every fillup I calculate the fuel economy. I've done that since the first tankful of fuel in 2004 for my truck. I know when I've been driving hard, I know when I've fueled up with a substandard batch of fuel. I know when there's a transition from summer to winter diesel. I could tell the difference after a couple of engine modifications. Keeping logs, either in spread sheet or a log book can yeild a lot of information about how your vehicle is performing.

-Steve

[Bean Counter]

I'm a Ford guy, and since you said that you're not a bean counter, then my choice is a full sized truck. (4x4 PowerStrokeDiesel)  I almost bought a Dodge Cummins but they didn't offer zero percent financing at the time.

I say full sized because you've got so much more room to haul gear and game.

Sure, my truck costs more, (hell, the engine was a $5,000 option), but it does average 17.5mpg and has gotten up to 21mpg on the freeway. (I've kept a log book since day one.) Will tow my 30' camp trailer up any paved hill. Towing, I get about 15mpg when running across the passes. So, if you think you'd ever want to get a camp trailer for your hunting excursions then you need to think bigger rig.

Diesel can't be denied for its ability to pull and MPG advantage over gas. However, I just can't stand the noise they put out. I am not a career road hunter by any means, but there are plenty of time I have been driving to or from an area and seen a deer or two. When I'm driving for work in a diesel I wonder how many deer take off way before I get there just because the thing is so darned loud. 

That's why I love my older Tundra so much. It basically has the room of a full size truck, but much quieter than a diesel. Sure, I can't pull anywhere near as much weight with mine, but I have never needed to and doubt I ever will. Sorry, another shameless plug from the 'Yota fans. 

[skipper]

I'm a Ford guy, and since you said that you're not a bean counter, then my choice is a full sized truck. (4x4 PowerStrokeDiesel)  I almost bought a Dodge Cummins but they didn't offer zero percent financing at the time.

I say full sized because you've got so much more room to haul gear and game.

Sure, my truck costs more, (hell, the engine was a $5,000 option), but it does average 17.5mpg and has gotten up to 21mpg on the freeway. (I've kept a log book since day one.) Will tow my 30' camp trailer up any paved hill. Towing, I get about 15mpg when running across the passes. So, if you think you'd ever want to get a camp trailer for your hunting excursions then you need to think bigger rig.

Diesel can't be denied for its ability to pull and MPG advantage over gas. However, I just can't stand the noise they put out. I am not a career road hunter by any means, but there are plenty of time I have been driving to or from an area and seen a deer or two. When I'm driving for work in a diesel I wonder how many deer take off way before I get there just because the thing is so darned loud. 

That's why I love my older Tundra so much. It basically has the room of a full size truck, but much quieter than a diesel. Sure, I can't pull anywhere near as much weight with mine, but I have never needed to and doubt I ever will. Sorry, another shameless plug from the 'Yota fans. 

I could be wrong but I think a Diesel truck would have a less effect of scaring the game off then a gas truck would because they hear diesel tucks all day long in most areas with all the logging and tractors and stuff the very seldom hear a gas truck unless someone is shooting at them from it

[ducks55]

what about a late 97+ pathfinder?

[rainshadow1]

Ivar, The 4runner is really hard to deny. THe 4cyl Toyota 4x4 from the mid 90's would be the ultimate but not allow seating, I ran into that problem and had to upgrade recently.

I heard you say you were looking past the CRV and RAV type rigs... would have been a really solid compromise (losing some off road capability and gaining mileage... both very reliable rigs.)

Nissans are very solid too depending on the maintenance history. (But they're not as forgiving of bad maintanance as the Toyota/Hondas. )

I had a Cherokee and liked it alot, but it got something like 16. Louder and looser, but kept on chugging through some nasty stuff!

I've had Explorers, if you can find one under 70k miles it can be an option. They're not a bad rig for the money if you find one that's really well kept. But you're still looking 14-16mpg. Also louder and looser, squeaks and creaks.

Needing the space and the 4wd capability, I didn't waver an inch from the 4runner. I just bought a 97 Limited.

For my recommendation, I'd point you straight at the 4runner, but allow you to let a well maintained Pathfinder to turn your head for a look too.

(Rebuilder / Licensed Dealer for 10 years.)

[ivarhusa]

Rainshadow, thanks for tha particulars. All are very helpful.  I counted out the RAV4-class vehicle because I didn't want to compromise the ability to get down rather rough roads.  I was faced with that just yesterday, as I was hunting the Swanson Lakes area.  There are several roads (Lonepine and Grant- actually named county roads) that are impassable to the average sedan.  That limited my hunting somewhat (though there is lots of acreage that was accessible).

I've spotted a couple of older 4-runners on Craigslist for about $3K.  Having never driven one, I wouldn't know what to 'listen for' in a test drive.  One had 270K miles, but rebuilt tranny and engine.  I am hoping to find one that isn't jacked up on big tires.  I don't mind the extra ground clearance, but I am sure it gives up something in 'stability' when cruising down the road. (Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers likened these jacked up small SUVs to basketballs bouncing down the road.  It wouldn't take much to get them to swap ends.)

Ivar

[rainshadow1]

If you're patient you will find one - or several - that have never left pavement. (Just beware of the 2wd models... Like tits on a Bull!)

The all wheel drive RAV/CRV vehicles are definately more capable than your Dodge sedan. By a long ways, but aren't as capable as the "true" 4wd vehicles.

[thinkingman]

I would consider a Suzuki or Geo Tracker.
Small, better mileage.
Seem like they would go.
I used a RAV4 for scouting.
Did OK, but would need more tire to go very far.
Current is Tacoma and seems very capable offroad.
AVG mpg is 16.

[ivarhusa]

Well, guys.  I pulled the pin and bought a rig.  It didn't turn out to be the fiscally conservative older model that I had hoped for, but a newer "socially acceptable" model. My wife reminded me that were I to have stuck to my plan, our three rigs together would have had close to half a million miles on them (combined). I had to buy some reliability.

We bought a 2006 Explorer.  Hey, it has leather seats, and that was important to her. (This having something to do with getting her panties in a wad when she'd get out of the car.  Leather is kinder to women wearing dresses. WHo knew?)

It will ride nice down the 4-lane, and get me down enough rough roads to keep me happy.  It doesn't have the ground clearance of a true 4x4, but it'll get me out of town in the winter. 

I've already plastered it with my 'colors':

[Bean Counter]

Way to go, Ivar! Good to keep the wife happy, too. 

And just where did I miss that kick @$$ window decal??? 

[rainshadow1]

I had a '98 , I was impressed with the 4wd system. In the snow I couldn't make it lose control under "normal" driving conditions (I tried to!) Nice decals!

[follow maggie]

My brother drives a similar Explorer and loves it- never has trouble.  I think you made a good choice.

[whacker1]

We have an 03 and love it. 

Best of luck.
Neil