Anti-"Flossing"/Leader Length Restriction

[bigtex]

The practice of "flossing" salmon has grown exponentially in WA rivers over the past few years. Flossing is dragging a line with a hook/lure through the mouths of salmon swimming upstream. The goal is to hook the fish without them actually voluntarily biting. It's so popular that WDFW just posted on Facebook a WDFW Sergeant explaining that flossing is actually illegal. But, how do you enforce a reg that requires you to know that the fish voluntarily took the lure? To make it more complicated under state regs its unlawful to possess a fish taken for personal use from freshwater areas that were not hooked inside the mouth or on the head, the head being defined as all parts of the fish anterior of the rear margin of the gill plate.

So "snagging" is taking fish where the fish didn't voluntarily take the lure. But yet you can possess a fish that was hooked on the head forward of the gill plate? Makes sense!

In order to "floss" you need a long leader, sometimes in excess of 6 or 10 feet. Oregon instituted a 3-foot leader restriction a decade ago, other states have similar restrictions. Some fishing groups are talking about submitting a rule change proposal instituting a 3-foot leader restriction while fishing in rivers where there is an open salmon season.

Your opinion?

[HntnFsh]

No. There is a lot of fishing using longer leaders that aren't flossing.

[CP]

No.  I don’t see that flossing is causing any harm to the runs.  You want to throw a 20-foot leader, have at it.  And what do you do with fly rod fisherman?   It’s hard enough to keep the regs straight as it is.
 

[HUNTIN4SIX]

BS in my opinion.  So what’s the point?  The decline in salmon is due to flossing?  I got my feet wet (no pun) flossing at the mouth of Kennedy Crk and in Capitol lake.  Nothing filled a day better than as a late teenager flossing salmon between the morning and evening hunt.  Of course it wasn’t called flossing then, just fishing.

[fishngamereaper]

No
Didn't they try this in 2013 ish? And the data didn't support it.
I always loved casting my 6-8' leader with single point hook on the skok back in the day and watching the kids across the river casting a bundle of treble hooks into the same pool...

[Boss .300 winmag]

Isn’t flossing good dental health, I wouldn’t want salmon to have bad teeth.🤣

There’s so many restrictions as it is, I can’t see this making much of a difference.😉

[fireweed]

There wouldn't be a fish caught in the Copper River In Alaska without it.  Chocolate water.  And how do you know a fish voluntarily took a hook?  Its dumb.  I've always thought it was dumb.  and BTW leader length is no guarantee either way.  Leave it alone.  Already a law that says the leader has to be longer than a foot (anti-snagging rule), now you want it shorter than 3 feet.  Aren't the kept ones hatchery fish anyway to be spawned, donated or dumped.  EEEKKKKK.

[scotsman]

Would I be flossing if I’m using, say, a spin reel loaded with 200 yards of 8# fluoro? At the end of the fluoro I have a simple, hand tied 1/4 oz black caribou jig. Casting across the river, wouldn’t that be flossing with a 200’ leader?

[SuperX]

wouldn't this require everyone to use a leader?  I fish mono without a leader just a hook and split-shot.

[HntnFsh]

There goes my diver and coon shrimp steelhead setup!

[Special T]

The complications of rules keeps me from engaging much in fishing.

I talked to a game warden that works the Samish river run. he has told me he has yet to write a fishing infraction because he cant get farther that 300yards from the bridge before he finds some one with a warrant.

Would this change really help, or is it just a feel good measure?

 

[HikerHunter]

In the rivers I fish, its a joke to think that leader length has an effect on the fish population.

[boneaddict]

Shorten the leaders but leave the gill nets in.  Brilliant!

[Dhoey07]

I got to watch the rise of the flossers in the Puyallup and Carbon.  We would laugh at them and make fun of them.  I don't consider it real fishing but I also don't think it's necessary to try and stop it. 

Just let them think they are good fishermen, or that it's required because salmon won't bite in rivers and just go on with your day.....

[WSU]

I dislike flossing and flossers.  It some cases, like the Skok, it can take biters and turn them into worse biters because they are constantly being harassed.  I avoid fishing in those types of situations.

That said, places were flossing is effective are places with a whole lot of fish stacked up.  Often those are hatchery fish created for us to harvest.  I don't see why we should let the rest of the fishers (commercial and tribal) fish with nets and more effective gear and then limit our ability to harvest our share.  In reality, we should get rid of bag limits in those situations and do everything possible to harvest all the hatchery fish we can.  Taking away flossing would be counterproductive.

[ducks4days]

I dislike flossing and flossers.  It some cases, like the Skok, it can take biters and turn them into worse biters because they are constantly being harassed.  I avoid fishing in those types of situations.

That said, places were flossing is effective are places with a whole lot of fish stacked up.  Often those are hatchery fish created for us to harvest.  I don't see why we should let the rest of the fishers (commercial and tribal) fish with nets and more effective gear and then limit our ability to harvest our share.  In reality, we should get rid of bag limits in those situations and do everything possible to harvest all the hatchery fish we can.  Taking away flossing would be counterproductive.

Numerous lawsuits have decided that the purpose of the hatcheries is to preserve SRKWs and treaty fishing rights. They should be, but those fish arent for recreational anglers.

[fishngamereaper]

Sounds like it's already illegal...

Come on DFW...get it together

[bigtex]

Sounds like it's already illegal...

Come on DFW...get it together

Like I said, flossing is illegal but its difficult to prove. That's why Oregon and others instituted a leader length restriction.

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[jackelope]

Flossing is/was legal in upstate NY.  We used to do it like mad in the Lake Ontario tributaries. Leaders were required. Minimum length 24”. No weight below the swivel. Used to floss the crap out of salmon with sub 30” leaders. We just couldn’t keep fish unless they were hooked in the mouth.

[fishngamereaper]

Sounds like it's already illegal...

Come on DFW...get it together

Like I said, flossing is illegal but its difficult to prove. That's why Oregon and others instituted a leader length restriction.

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Well unless you guys can interview the fish....But..
Ya based on the way WA laws are written...it seems impossible to prove.
Who's pushing the proposed rule... BIOS or Enforcement?

[Tbar]

Sounds like it's already illegal...

Come on DFW...get it together

This is purely a policy call.  Samish is talking about cutting production because of the difficulty disposing of the biomass.  He references ethics and resource which is wrong on at least two of the terminal areas he mentioned.  Terminal areas where they exceed take, surplus and escapement.  So ethical methods can be very broad unless there is a purist mentality. 

[WSU]

Sounds like it's already illegal...

Come on DFW...get it together

This is purely a policy call.  Samish is talking about cutting production because of the difficulty disposing of the biomass.  He references ethics and resource which is wrong on at least two of the terminal areas he mentioned.  Terminal areas where they exceed take, surplus and escapement.  So ethical methods can be very broad unless there is a purist mentality.

Amen.

[Rob Allen]

 Give wardens more leeway and their voice more weight in court..  they say  you were snagging YOU WERE SNAGGING. hell if your "Drift fishing" with just a corkie for fall salmon  no question about it you are snagging  if there is a pool full of you all fishing corkies, you're all snaggers.. yeah  you've been doing it  your whole life and you don't think of yourself as a poacher but you are.   if you have to hook a number of fish to get one  " in the mouth"  you are a poacher.
 regulations.. " the fish must voluntarily take the hooks into it's mouth"    everything else is snagging.  hmm yeah maybe not provable in court but you know you're doing it and you should  feel guilt and shame over it and stop doing it or not be offended when someone calls you a poacher you cannot have it both ways.

Below the hatchery on the Satsop yeah you're a snagger
 Oak Park on the Washougal  yeah you're a snagger
hatchery hole on the North Lewis  snaggers
 the lower fly water on the Kalama, yeah you've got a fly rod but you're still a snagger

 how about you just leave the corkies at home, buy some bobbers, buy some eggs or throw some spinners and just do things right

 snaggers  are NOT recreational anglers... they are poachers,  no different than shooting an elk out of season
 

[HntnFsh]

 the fish must voluntarily take the hooks into it's mouth
Is this actually in the regs?
Dont they say something about must be hooked in the head?
If so seems like conflicting info.

I havent looked and dont have a set of regs in front of me.

There are several fisheries that I feel flossing should be fine. Cowlitz system coho for example.

[freshgrease]

Give wardens more leeway and their voice more weight in court..  they say  you were snagging YOU WERE SNAGGING. hell if your "Drift fishing" with just a corkie for fall salmon  no question about it you are snagging  if there is a pool full of you all fishing corkies, you're all snaggers.. yeah  you've been doing it  your whole life and you don't think of yourself as a poacher but you are.   if you have to hook a number of fish to get one  " in the mouth"  you are a poacher.
 regulations.. " the fish must voluntarily take the hooks into it's mouth"    everything else is snagging.  hmm yeah maybe not provable in court but you know you're doing it and you should  feel guilt and shame over it and stop doing it or not be offended when someone calls you a poacher you cannot have it both ways.

Below the hatchery on the Satsop yeah you're a snagger
 Oak Park on the Washougal  yeah you're a snagger
hatchery hole on the North Lewis  snaggers
 the lower fly water on the Kalama, yeah you've got a fly rod but you're still a snagger

 how about you just leave the corkies at home, buy some bobbers, buy some eggs or throw some spinners and just do things right

 snaggers  are NOT recreational anglers... they are poachers,  no different than shooting an elk out of season

This high horse attitude about flossing is the funniest hill to die on.

I hope you never go fishing in alaska and have to suddenly judge the thousands of locals flipping for reds. All awful people.

I've had family members that are fishing guides, and myself, catch plenty of trout, pink salmon especially, and other fish with a small red bead or corky pegged 2" above the hook drifting our boats on the Kenai. Must be completely unethical of us. Game wardens really let us have it with all the zero dollar tickets each time we chatted.

Ever watch people fish the Russian river?

This whole argument is a damn joke to be having. Yall just need to mind your own business when your fishing and remember why you're out there. It's the same effect as getting mad that some people shoot animals over mounds of corn

[bigtex]

the fish must voluntarily take the hooks into it's mouth
Is this actually in the regs?
Dont they say something about must be hooked in the head?
If so seems like conflicting info.

I havent looked and dont have a set of regs in front of me.

There are several fisheries that I feel flossing should be fine. Cowlitz system coho for example.

This is discussed in my original post.

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[Tbar]

Give wardens more leeway and their voice more weight in court..  they say  you were snagging YOU WERE SNAGGING. hell if your "Drift fishing" with just a corkie for fall salmon  no question about it you are snagging  if there is a pool full of you all fishing corkies, you're all snaggers.. yeah  you've been doing it  your whole life and you don't think of yourself as a poacher but you are.   if you have to hook a number of fish to get one  " in the mouth"  you are a poacher.
 regulations.. " the fish must voluntarily take the hooks into it's mouth"    everything else is snagging.  hmm yeah maybe not provable in court but you know you're doing it and you should  feel guilt and shame over it and stop doing it or not be offended when someone calls you a poacher you cannot have it both ways.

Below the hatchery on the Satsop yeah you're a snagger
 Oak Park on the Washougal  yeah you're a snagger
hatchery hole on the North Lewis  snaggers
 the lower fly water on the Kalama, yeah you've got a fly rod but you're still a snagger

 how about you just leave the corkies at home, buy some bobbers, buy some eggs or throw some spinners and just do things right

 snaggers  are NOT recreational anglers... they are poachers,  no different than shooting an elk out of season

This is a poor comparison on many levels. If you have a conservation reference please cite it.  If not it's a policy or ego conflict. In many of the areas where conservation goals are met actual snagging could be viewed as ethical (use vs waste). There are several post take terminal areas in Alaska where snagging is allowed with liberal limits.  In the samish, with the mess that it is,  there isn't the horsepower to negatively effect the needs. Again these are terminal areas and stacked hatchery fish that are in excess of egg take,  escapement AND surplus.  Nutrient delivery to nearby forest has limitations and is mostly feel good (or accusatory).

[Rob Allen]

Intentionally  breaking game laws without any form of without any change  of behavior  makes  you a habitual  hardened poacher.. snagging included.
  Just like the Facebook poaching rings that get busted that's the same caliber of people..

[BA Mongor]

Some people are delusional. Let's give more power to individuals that can access your property whenever they see fit and empower them more to make judgment calls on if a fish bit your lure or not! Just plain stupid. And lets make sure your word means nothing in a court of law.

Heck, we might as well just give them the power to sentence you on the spot. 

[hollymaster]

Flossing is the only way to catch fish in the puke and carbon. Inch or two of visibility.

[Platensek-po]

Give wardens more leeway and their voice more weight in court..  they say  you were snagging YOU WERE SNAGGING. hell if your "Drift fishing" with just a corkie for fall salmon  no question about it you are snagging  if there is a pool full of you all fishing corkies, you're all snaggers.. yeah  you've been doing it  your whole life and you don't think of yourself as a poacher but you are.   if you have to hook a number of fish to get one  " in the mouth"  you are a poacher.
 regulations.. " the fish must voluntarily take the hooks into it's mouth"    everything else is snagging.  hmm yeah maybe not provable in court but you know you're doing it and you should  feel guilt and shame over it and stop doing it or not be offended when someone calls you a poacher you cannot have it both ways.

Below the hatchery on the Satsop yeah you're a snagger
 Oak Park on the Washougal  yeah you're a snagger
hatchery hole on the North Lewis  snaggers
 the lower fly water on the Kalama, yeah you've got a fly rod but you're still a snagger

 how about you just leave the corkies at home, buy some bobbers, buy some eggs or throw some spinners and just do things right

 snaggers  are NOT recreational anglers... they are poachers,  no different than shooting an elk out of season

How would anyone know if a fish voluntarily took the hook in the mouth?
This statement is super bizarre. Guess next time I’ll ask the fish if he meant to bit the hook or not.

[furbearer365]

Give wardens more leeway and their voice more weight in court..  they say  you were snagging YOU WERE SNAGGING. hell if your "Drift fishing" with just a corkie for fall salmon  no question about it you are snagging  if there is a pool full of you all fishing corkies, you're all snaggers.. yeah  you've been doing it  your whole life and you don't think of yourself as a poacher but you are.   if you have to hook a number of fish to get one  " in the mouth"  you are a poacher.
 regulations.. " the fish must voluntarily take the hooks into it's mouth"    everything else is snagging.  hmm yeah maybe not provable in court but you know you're doing it and you should  feel guilt and shame over it and stop doing it or not be offended when someone calls you a poacher you cannot have it both ways.

Below the hatchery on the Satsop yeah you're a snagger
 Oak Park on the Washougal  yeah you're a snagger
hatchery hole on the North Lewis  snaggers
 the lower fly water on the Kalama, yeah you've got a fly rod but you're still a snagger

 how about you just leave the corkies at home, buy some bobbers, buy some eggs or throw some spinners and just do things right

 snaggers  are NOT recreational anglers... they are poachers,  no different than shooting an elk out of season

How would anyone know if a fish voluntarily took the hook in the mouth?
This statement is super bizarre. Guess next time I’ll ask the fish if he meant to bit the hook or not.

It's not super bizarre. The point he's making is really basic. There is a difference between ethics and law. Law needs to be proven, ethics are an unspoken rule. Both of which have merit in hunting and fishing. His point is, people who snag know they are doing so, and they know if a fish is caught from a bite, or caught from a line bump. If you want to play dumb and act like since you can't prove a difference in court, that shows who you are as an outdoorsman

[Platensek-po]

Give wardens more leeway and their voice more weight in court..  they say  you were snagging YOU WERE SNAGGING. hell if your "Drift fishing" with just a corkie for fall salmon  no question about it you are snagging  if there is a pool full of you all fishing corkies, you're all snaggers.. yeah  you've been doing it  your whole life and you don't think of yourself as a poacher but you are.   if you have to hook a number of fish to get one  " in the mouth"  you are a poacher.
 regulations.. " the fish must voluntarily take the hooks into it's mouth"    everything else is snagging.  hmm yeah maybe not provable in court but you know you're doing it and you should  feel guilt and shame over it and stop doing it or not be offended when someone calls you a poacher you cannot have it both ways.

Below the hatchery on the Satsop yeah you're a snagger
 Oak Park on the Washougal  yeah you're a snagger
hatchery hole on the North Lewis  snaggers
 the lower fly water on the Kalama, yeah you've got a fly rod but you're still a snagger

 how about you just leave the corkies at home, buy some bobbers, buy some eggs or throw some spinners and just do things right

 snaggers  are NOT recreational anglers... they are poachers,  no different than shooting an elk out of season

How would anyone know if a fish voluntarily took the hook in the mouth?
This statement is super bizarre. Guess next time I’ll ask the fish if he meant to bit the hook or not.

It's not super bizarre. The point he's making is really basic. There is a difference between ethics and law. Law needs to be proven, ethics are an unspoken rule. Both of which have merit in hunting and fishing. His point is, people who snag know they are doing so, and they know if a fish is caught from a bite, or caught from a line bump. If you want to play dumb and act like since you can't prove a difference in court, that shows who you are as an outdoorsman

lol. I have caught uncountable steelhead fly fishing and with just a bead or ez eggs. Every single one hooked in the mouth. Yet according to him that’s snagging cause it’s not using bait or a spinner?? I e also caught fish foul hooked with spinners in the head cause they missed the take, is that a snagged fish?

[snake]

we need more laws, more rules, more government.  snagging being illegal is not enough. we need the government to protect us and the salmon. More laws please.

[bigtex]

Flossing is the only way to catch fish in the puke and carbon. Inch or two of visibility.

What do you think people did to catch fish before flossing came around? People still caught fish, just not to the levels they do now.

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[Taco280AI]

No. There is a lot of fishing using longer leaders that aren't flossing.

 

And we don't need more and more and more laws/regs about what we can't do.

[bigtex]

Sounds like it's already illegal...

Come on DFW...get it together

Like I said, flossing is illegal but its difficult to prove. That's why Oregon and others instituted a leader length restriction.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Well unless you guys can interview the fish....But..
Ya based on the way WA laws are written...it seems impossible to prove.
Who's pushing the proposed rule... BIOS or Enforcement?

It's fishing groups organizing the petition. I assume if/when it comes up formally that Enforcement will support it.

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[Tbar]

Sounds like it's already illegal...

Come on DFW...get it together

Like I said, flossing is illegal but its difficult to prove. That's why Oregon and others instituted a leader length restriction.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Well unless you guys can interview the fish....But..
Ya based on the way WA laws are written...it seems impossible to prove.
Who's pushing the proposed rule... BIOS or Enforcement?

It's fishing groups organizing the petition. I assume if/when it comes up formally that Enforcement will support it.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Which groups?

[Macs B]

Would it be considered flossing if the fish runs his mouth into my gill or drift net without actually biting it?