What's your take on this?

[Woodchuck]

So for all of you who think old guy was wrong, what reason did the skirt boy have for coming around the counter to get in old guys face and initiate the confrontation? Why didn't he stay behind the counter?

Come to my place of work, stand there and insult me personally, because you don't like the hat I'm wearing, yes I will come around the counter and you will leave. 

[dylan34_36]

So for all of you who think old guy was wrong, what reason did the skirt boy have for coming around the counter to get in old guys face and initiate the confrontation? Why didn't he stay behind the counter?

Regardless of age and insulting comments of peoples outfits, I might do a quick google on washington's stand your ground laws. What I saw is a bully get put in his place. I also think comparing this super grown man to a child or intellectually disabled person is insulting to those who are young or intellectually disabled. Theres a reason there are protections for juveniles and disabled persons. I do believe the elder man was asked to leave and didn't. I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure thats trespassing. Just my 2 cents.

[Mtnwalker]

Dealing with a father suffering mental decline has really opened my eyes to how many people walking around on a daily basis are probably dealing with similar issues. He was always one of the friendliest most outgoing people I knew, never rude or confrontational. Over the course of the last year he has become irritable, difficult, and outright confrontational at times. His old self would be appalled by who he has become. He still functions fine and it's not like I can force him to stay home because he might piss off the cashier at Home Depot or something, but I should hope the people he encounters throughout his day can have the compassion and common decency to deal with him being an ass without getting physical. Bottom line, skirt boy is a coward plain and simple. His wife's shop now gets to pay the price for his insecurity

[Bullkllr]

I'm thinking the legal threshold for physical violence is higher than someone being in a business and then being asked to leave. It doesn't matter what he said to the guy in the eyes of the law.

If you really watch the video closely, there isn't much to argue that the old guy was ever a physical threat. Skirt guy turfed him, then took several steps forward as OG was helplessly rolling onto his side and reaching for his head. Then skirt guy stood over him, saying who knows what. "The punch" as he puts it, was OG basically taking his arm off his own head and flailing it in SG's direction- and he says it landed near his groin. You can't tell from the video. There was no chance for any force behind it, and SG's only reaction to it was to immediately punch OG in the head several times while he lolled on the floor.

Remind me again; who's the bully?

[Sandberm]

I swear this message board could escalate a fart in a whirlwind into a nuclear bomb. 

[dylan34_36]

I'm thinking the legal threshold for physical violence is higher than someone being in a business and then being asked to leave. It doesn't matter what he said to the guy in the eyes of the law.

If you really watch the video closely, there isn't much to argue that the old guy was ever a physical threat. Skirt guy turfed him, then took several steps forward as OG was helplessly rolling onto his side and reaching for his head. Then skirt guy stood over him, saying who knows what. "The punch" as he puts, it was OG basically taking his arm off his own head and flailing it in SG's direction- and he says it landed near his groin. There was no chance for any force behind it. Then he punched OG in the head several times.

Remind me again; who's the bully?

I mean someone refusing to leave a business is trespassing. According to the stand your ground policy you have no duty to retreat and are legally allowed to use "reasonable force" if you feel threatened especially in place of business or in your home. When you square up and make a fist, I would interpret that as a threat of violence.  Here is where you can de-escalate or use your reasonable force. I would consider the push reasonable force. Since the "punch to the groin" isn't seen on the camera but is admitted to by the one on the ground, reasonable force is in question when the skirt man does his ground and pound. He is being charged with 4th degree assault according to the article that was posted which does seem warranted considering how this situation ended. Although the older man could just as easily be charged with trespassing.   
"Washington courts have consistently upheld our right to remain in a lawful location with “no duty to retreat.”  Flight, however reasonable as an alternative to violence, is not required. While the wisdom of such a policy may be open to debate, the policy is one of long standing and reflects the notion that one lawfully where he is entitled to be should not be made to yield and flee by a show of unlawful force against him.  See State v. Williams, 81 Wn.App. 738 (1996)."
I'd say clearly it wasn't handled well by either party. Shouldn't be squaring up if you don't got a good base and you shouldn't be punching folks on the ground if you wanna stay free.

[jrebel]

Dealing with a father suffering mental decline has really opened my eyes to how many people walking around on a daily basis are probably dealing with similar issues. He was always one of the friendliest most outgoing people I knew, never rude or confrontational. Over the course of the last year he has become irritable, difficult, and outright confrontational at times. His old self would be appalled by who he has become. He still functions fine and it's not like I can force him to stay home because he might piss off the cashier at Home Depot or something, but I should hope the people he encounters throughout his day can have the compassion and common decency to deal with him being an ass without getting physical. Bottom line, skirt boy is a coward plain and simple. His wife's shop now gets to pay the price for his insecurity

Very well said.  I see this daily at work and it is very sad, but reality.  Physiologically, our bodies change as we age.  For the members condoning or justifying skirt boys actions.....I really hope you have second thoughts if ever put in that situation.  I regularly see simple ground level falls cause head bleads, fractured hips / arms, etc. in our elderly population.  A forceful push to a concrete floor and then closed fist blows to the temple area......that old man is lucky to be alive and not more seriously injured than he was. 

No one wins in these situations folks.....older man gets hurt (luck not to be killed) and younger man ends up in jail or with a record.  Be smart folks.

[ghosthunter]

Having managed a C Store for 27 years I met a lot of people with problems.
I had one cashier who was excellent, but every year she would piss one customer off about something. I would always tell her.

“Everyday people come through the door with problems you can’t solve, don’t let them make their problem your problem”

I have a step son who wears a kilt to work some. If you are going to make yourself stand out you got to have the confidence to live with your choices. Hats or dress shouldn’t be an issue in this day and age.

I have trespassed lots of folks and never would I lay hands on them. That’s what LE is for.

And I expect a different answer from folks who are owners and folks who are employees. But that doesn’t make it right.

In my opinion which means nothing, any claim of self defense ended when OG hit the ground. KG should have stepped back and called LE. If OG came after him at that point things have changed.

But OG might have a case once he hit ground because KG advanced on him, any thing OG did while on the floor could easily be painted defensive.

I am 73, folks call me a nice guy , that doesn’t mean someone can’t push my button. I have let my displeasure be know when I think an employee somewhere or manager is mistreating me or others.

 

[Bullkllr]

I'm thinking the legal threshold for physical violence is higher than someone being in a business and then being asked to leave. It doesn't matter what he said to the guy in the eyes of the law.

If you really watch the video closely, there isn't much to argue that the old guy was ever a physical threat. Skirt guy turfed him, then took several steps forward as OG was helplessly rolling onto his side and reaching for his head. Then skirt guy stood over him, saying who knows what. "The punch" as he puts, it was OG basically taking his arm off his own head and flailing it in SG's direction- and he says it landed near his groin. There was no chance for any force behind it. Then he punched OG in the head several times.

Remind me again; who's the bully?

I mean someone refusing to leave a business is trespassing. According to the stand your ground policy you have no duty to retreat and are legally allowed to use "reasonable force" if you feel threatened especially in place of business or in your home. When you square up and make a fist, I would interpret that as a threat of violence.  Here is where you can de-escalate or use your reasonable force. I would consider the push reasonable force. Since the "punch to the groin" isn't seen on the camera but is admitted to by the one on the ground, reasonable force is in question when the skirt man does his ground and pound. He is being charged with 4th degree assault according to the article that was posted which does seem warranted considering how this situation ended. Although the older man could just as easily be charged with trespassing.   
"Washington courts have consistently upheld our right to remain in a lawful location with “no duty to retreat.”  Flight, however reasonable as an alternative to violence, is not required. While the wisdom of such a policy may be open to debate, the policy is one of long standing and reflects the notion that one lawfully where he is entitled to be should not be made to yield and flee by a show of unlawful force against him.  See State v. Williams, 81 Wn.App. 738 (1996)."
I'd say clearly it wasn't handled well by either party. Shouldn't be squaring up if you don't got a good base and you shouldn't be punching folks on the ground if you wanna stay free.

Agree with pretty much everything you mention, except the part regarding the old man's posturing being a legit threat. There's a 5-letter word for what the skirt-wearer looks like in being "threatened" by that old man enough to do what he did. I'd mention it, but I don't think it would get by the censors.   

[dylan34_36]

I'm thinking the legal threshold for physical violence is higher than someone being in a business and then being asked to leave. It doesn't matter what he said to the guy in the eyes of the law.

If you really watch the video closely, there isn't much to argue that the old guy was ever a physical threat. Skirt guy turfed him, then took several steps forward as OG was helplessly rolling onto his side and reaching for his head. Then skirt guy stood over him, saying who knows what. "The punch" as he puts, it was OG basically taking his arm off his own head and flailing it in SG's direction- and he says it landed near his groin. There was no chance for any force behind it. Then he punched OG in the head several times.

Remind me again; who's the bully?

I mean someone refusing to leave a business is trespassing. According to the stand your ground policy you have no duty to retreat and are legally allowed to use "reasonable force" if you feel threatened especially in place of business or in your home. When you square up and make a fist, I would interpret that as a threat of violence.  Here is where you can de-escalate or use your reasonable force. I would consider the push reasonable force. Since the "punch to the groin" isn't seen on the camera but is admitted to by the one on the ground, reasonable force is in question when the skirt man does his ground and pound. He is being charged with 4th degree assault according to the article that was posted which does seem warranted considering how this situation ended. Although the older man could just as easily be charged with trespassing.   
"Washington courts have consistently upheld our right to remain in a lawful location with “no duty to retreat.”  Flight, however reasonable as an alternative to violence, is not required. While the wisdom of such a policy may be open to debate, the policy is one of long standing and reflects the notion that one lawfully where he is entitled to be should not be made to yield and flee by a show of unlawful force against him.  See State v. Williams, 81 Wn.App. 738 (1996)."
I'd say clearly it wasn't handled well by either party. Shouldn't be squaring up if you don't got a good base and you shouldn't be punching folks on the ground if you wanna stay free.

Agree with pretty much everything you mention, except the part regarding the old man's posturing being a legit threat. There's a 5-letter word for what the skirt-wearer looks like in being "threatened" by that old man enough to do what he did. I'd mention it, but I don't think it would get by the censors.   

I probably wouldn't consider his posturing being a legit threat either. 100% not after he went to the ground.

[Sandberm]

Dealing with a father suffering mental decline has really opened my eyes to how many people walking around on a daily basis are probably dealing with similar issues. He was always one of the friendliest most outgoing people I knew, never rude or confrontational. Over the course of the last year he has become irritable, difficult, and outright confrontational at times. His old self would be appalled by who he has become. He still functions fine and it's not like I can force him to stay home because he might piss off the cashier at Home Depot or something, but I should hope the people he encounters throughout his day can have the compassion and common decency to deal with him being an ass without getting physical. Bottom line, skirt boy is a coward plain and simple. His wife's shop now gets to pay the price for his insecurity

Your post brings back memories.

 I typed out a long post about my fathers demise,... read it out loud to myself,... had a good cry and deleted it.

Thanks for the free therapy session Mtnwalker. Its good to relive some things, even if they were difficult. I feel a bit more human now.

[Ridgeratt]

This parallels the many butcher shop threads on here. Someone takes their harvest to a local meat cutter and they didn't get back the amount they felt they should have, or the thought that they got ground meat that they took in and the butcher had ground theirs in with others. They had some of the meat done and didn't like the quality or quantity of the finished product and the cost was way more than they had imagined. If you read any of those threads' folks are put off by many different things. Taste, volume returned, Everyone's taste buds are different and something that I might think is great the next person has a different opinion.

After watching the video, I am wondering just how the old guy got into the person in the skirt personal space when the person in the skirt was the one who closed the distance and then confronted the old guy?

I'm sure several folks will have an opinion. But like I have said opinions are like "O"rings some of us just have larger ones.

Thanks to the people who have suggested we pay attention to our seniors who might be going thru dealing with dragons.

[Fidelk]

So for all of you who think old guy was wrong, what reason did the skirt boy have for coming around the counter to get in old guys face and initiate the confrontation? Why didn't he stay behind the counter?

I think kilt guy can go anywhere in the shop that he wants to go to. He wasn't obligated to stay behind the counter. He probably wishes that he had and called the police to remove old guy.

[Fidelk]

What I saw is a bully get put in his place. I also think comparing this super grown man to a child or intellectually disabled person is insulting to those who are young or intellectually disabled. Theres a reason there are protections for juveniles and disabled persons. I do believe the elder man was asked to leave and didn't. I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure thats trespassing. Just my 2 cents.

The elderly also have protections in place, same as children and the disabled. An assault on an elderly person can result in enhanced sentencing following a conviction.

[b0bbyg]

I swear this message board could escalate a fart in a whirlwind into a nuclear bomb. 

Don't disagree, I am sure we would have many self professed climatology experts that would weigh in.

Had an issue with a butcher once, we talked about it, I now don't spend money there.

Also have dealt with family in mental decline late in life, hard to explain the challenges to those who have not. You learn a lot going through it first hand.