Big money Bulls. Is jealousy really the answer?

[CarbonHunter]

One thing I see posted a lot about these raffle tags and auction tags is how these big spenders are helping so much with the conservation of whichever species they are buying tags for. I know the money must be going somewhere, but I can’t remember any tag numbers for us normal hunters increasing even one time since these special tags were implemented. The opposite seems to be true where seasons keep getting shorter and “ quality “ permit numbers continue to decline. I think that’s where some of this so called jealousy arises from. 1 guy has numerous big horn sheep and monster bulls while the rest of us are limited to one tag in your life, all because of money? Maybe the OIL rules should apply to these raffle and auction tags also for the true OIL species?

I don’t think these auction tags are contributing to the decline of opportunity for our draw system. The main issues with the decline of opportunities is tribal hunting and poaching removing the quality animals for the pool for permits to be issued for. Followed by disease and lost of habitat.

Where money truly impacts hunting is when they are buying up the land and either locking out the hunters or developing the land.

[chukarchaser]

You forgot bears, cats and wolves.  Every unit in this state has at least two of the three impacting our game animals. Most of the quality units have all three.

[Bows4huntn]

I wasn’t insinuating that these tags were contributing to the decline of the regular opportunities, except every one of these tags is one tag that could be added for an everyday person like myself to have a chance to draw ? And I guess maybe the money these tags bring in is slowing the decline of the animals overall but who knows?

[chukardogs]

 I try not to judge. That's something I stress for myself. First and foremost, give every person or situation the benefit of the doubt and look at it from a fresh unbiased mind. (You can quit laughing now)
 There are times that I'm successful in that endeavor and then others, not so much.
 That said, I don't understand the jealousy aspect. What would a person be jealous of? There may be some envy going on but jealousy is a big stretch.
 If it comes out that this animal was hazed until it moved onto a piece of land where it could be killed, my issue isn't the killing of this animal, it's the idea that every hunter will be now painted with that same brush. At this point, I can only hope this animal will be more than a set of antlers and be appreciated by the community that it will feed.
 Hunters are humans first. Humans are flawed animals with the ability to workout complex issues. Based on the current predator/prey environmental shift going on, man's finding that deer, elk and moose have brains also. Some of these animals have looked around and decided that the safest place for me is right beside humans. I find it amazing how much can change in one hundred years! Can you imagine what would have happened during the great depression if a deer, elk or moose walked within eye sight of civilization? I wonder if the anti's would have been front and center with signs and bull horns or forks and knives? Of course, people are encroaching on the land that animals have been living on for a millennium. The result is the same. Animals are living within and not leaving populated areas. 
 I, like some, find the idea of shooting an animal that has been feeding on alfalfa in someones front yard, to be repugnant. Not because I have a problem with the killing of the animal but because it doesn't fit within my idea of fair chase. That said, I've been lucky enough to have grown up and lived during a time where I had the luxury to be what I believe is ethical.
 We all have our opinions of what is right or wrong. Where did we get these opinions and ideas of right or wrong? A few years back, I watched my one year old English Setter point the second Blue Grouse he ever encountered. Why, instinct? Do humans instinctively know what's right and wrong? Dogs sure don't. That same Setter will take a full chicken carcass out of the center of the dining room table and walk out the back door and sit on the porch and devour the entire bird if you let him. He won't move unless he thinks you're going to take it from him and once you've caught him, he may growl at you when you do. Only after being manhandled and corrected, will he give up the bird. I'd love to say, he won't do it again but that just ain't the case.
 Just like dogs, (my belief is), a human learns right and wrong from their environment. Because no two humans are brought up in the exact same environment and our environment is changing daily, no two humans have the same sense of right and wrong. This means we as hunters, non-hunters and anti-hunters or hypocrits if you will, will all look at this specific situation differently. Social media just brings all these different beliefs, front and center.
 Do hunters or humans need to change their sense of right and wrong? Who knows? It seems to me that at the very least, for our own health, we need to accept that things are changing rapidly and there are things and situations happening that we may not find acceptable and ultimately, this or that has to be okay.

[CarbonHunter]

I think people who use the word “jealous” to describe people who they do not like what was said is just a cop out unless you can actually point to an example of jealousy.

The stereotype’s that people use when they don’t have the answer or are trying to deflect is everywhere and in the days of social media sometimes it is all we hear. No different than back in the days of the Salem witch trials but when we burn them at the stick today it is figuratively and not literally.

[7mmBuckley]

Didn't you pack salt in to a location to attract your deer and have it become habituated to a certain location and the scent of you being there? What's the difference? You probably have more photos of your deer than this guy does of his elk alive.

That’s not even close to the same thing. And if you can’t see the difference then you’re the problem with hunting today. I packed in salt 5 months and 4 days before I shot my buck. And it only came to the salt lick 3 times before the season began and hadn’t been to the salt in 5 weeks before I shot it. I wasn’t trying to get it “habituated” to anything, I was trying to see what was living in an area and be able to target the most mature buck. I shot my buck almost 4 miles from any roads and over 2000 feet of elevation gain from my pickup. The difference is I worked by butt off for a buck that nobody else knew about and was happy with that. I didn’t lie about it and actually shoot it in my neighborhood where it was eating under my apple tree the day before. Casey’s son Beau is acting like it was a grueling hunt for months and this bull “reappeared” in December and they finally got it done on the last day. I don’t know the details of the hunt, nor does it really matter as long as it was legal. But it is not even close to the same, mine was an otc tag that anyone in the world with a hunters license can buy. His bull was on a raffle tag in which you can hunt for 5 months straight and he didn’t get it done until it came down by people’s yards. Am I saying I wouldn’t have shot the bull? Absolutely not, I would’ve shot that bull in a heartbeat. However, if I had shot it, I would’ve came clean and told everyone the truth of the story, which they still haven’t done. Everything about this bull is hear say so far and that is why it is so controversial. If they had came clean and said, we shot this bull the second it crossed onto public from so and so’s yard full of hay, the story would’ve lost its luster, but at least everyone would’ve known the truth.


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[/quote]


You nailed it!!! The hunters kid has caused a ton of people to chime in. Keep your mouth shut and move on BUT when you attempt to paint a picture as this was a DIY hunt for 4 months when it was shot just off of a apple pile in someone’s pasture is plain and simple IT IS WRONG!! He wanted attention and he got it!!! Your post is spot on!!

[Tbar]

   I don't want to derail record bull thread anymore than it is, so I thought I would pose the question here.
 
  I think its readily apparent anytime a big bull is posted the "jealousy" label gets slapped up more times than Fauci saying "stop the spread" during a covid press conference.

   My question is, is it it really that simple? Is any comment that questions the validity, or is not a glowing affirmation of the hunters prowess and skill driven solely by this single emotion.

   Personally, I think jealousy by and large has very little to do with it. Obviously jealousy exists I am not denying that. However, hunting when viewed as a "sport" by a group is unique and may be the only sport that has no scale upon which to measure the individuals accomplishments. The individual by the nature of taking a life, should be satisfied with their results. But once shared they open themselves up to criticism upon which there are no written rules ( after the legal ones ) to compare the level of "good".
   In sports like basketball, football, golf etc..., there are rigidly defined parameters that govern all players in a specific era and level. Determining the level of skill needed to achieve or excel is easy. In other words, you cannot pay enough to get someone to lower the basket so you can win a dunking contest against Jordan. Contest sports ( which i categorize hunting in ) like boxing or UFC get a little more sideways because competition can to some extent be chosen. Still, its pretty transparent and relatively easy to spot when a contender is ducking another or weighing the odds in their favor.

   By and large I think most hunters that raise questions are not doing so because they are jealous, but because they want a reference for comparisons. Specifically comparisons to their own styles or self imposed rules. 

   Big bulls and bucks area always cool. But being the highest score TO ME has little to do with that animals ability to survive, to grow, or most pertinent to this topic escape and evade hunters.

   The truth cold and hard as it is, is this. No free range animal living on hay bales in back yards, with limited to no hunting pressure, in the proximity of humans, possibly driven off home field advantage due to snow, is comparable when being hunted to an animal who is not blessed with those gifts. I think some folks believe that because they utilize their money or other resources to get them access to those types of animals who are not as equipped to deal with hunter pressure, they will be categorized differently than others. And they will. That doesn't make those who are judging jealous, it just makes a more equitable comparison. It reminds me of the scene in rocky 3 when Mick tell Rocky that he would get killed in a fight against Clubber, and his title defenses were against handpicked fighters.

   I don't get why it bothers anyone at all on either side. If it does, do something about it instead of throwing labels.

 

This is a strange question especially coming from you.  I remember a comment to the effect of "it was just a 5 point, nothing special". To me there was a large spectrum of emotions coming from a highly skilled hunter(you). I believe emotions including jealousy are not all bad,  at times you can be jealous and appreciate things at the same time and both are okay.  Hunting is just so much more and does so much more than just classifying it as a competitive sport as stated yet actions represent other emotions invoked including jealousy in other settings.

[280ackley]

Didn't you pack salt in to a location to attract your deer and have it become habituated to a certain location and the scent of you being there? What's the difference? You probably have more photos of your deer than this guy does of his elk alive.

That’s not even close to the same thing. And if you can’t see the difference then you’re the problem with hunting today. I packed in salt 5 months and 4 days before I shot my buck. And it only came to the salt lick 3 times before the season began and hadn’t been to the salt in 5 weeks before I shot it. I wasn’t trying to get it “habituated” to anything, I was trying to see what was living in an area and be able to target the most mature buck. I shot my buck almost 4 miles from any roads and over 2000 feet of elevation gain from my pickup. The difference is I worked by butt off for a buck that nobody else knew about and was happy with that. I didn’t lie about it and actually shoot it in my neighborhood where it was eating under my apple tree the day before. Casey’s son Beau is acting like it was a grueling hunt for months and this bull “reappeared” in December and they finally got it done on the last day. I don’t know the details of the hunt, nor does it really matter as long as it was legal. But it is not even close to the same, mine was an otc tag that anyone in the world with a hunters license can buy. His bull was on a raffle tag in which you can hunt for 5 months straight and he didn’t get it done until it came down by people’s yards. Am I saying I wouldn’t have shot the bull? Absolutely not, I would’ve shot that bull in a heartbeat. However, if I had shot it, I would’ve came clean and told everyone the truth of the story, which they still haven’t done. Everything about this bull is hear say so far and that is why it is so controversial. If they had came clean and said, we shot this bull the second it crossed onto public from so and so’s yard full of hay, the story would’ve lost its luster, but at least everyone would’ve known the truth.


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You nailed it!!! The hunters kid has caused a ton of people to chime in. Keep your mouth shut and move on BUT when you attempt to paint a picture as this was a DIY hunt for 4 months when it was shot just off of a apple pile in someone’s pasture is plain and simple IT IS WRONG!! He wanted attention and he got it!!! Your post is spot on!!
[/quote]

The original post by the hunters son has caused 90% of the negative comments IMO.

[LDennis24]

Yeah I'm sure I'm the one pissing everyone off with the jealousy comments but that's what it is. And a lack of self control on your emotions maybe.  I get angry sometimes and I get jealous, but I don't feel the need to critique someone's success to make it sound like less of an accomplishment. Atleast I try not to do that.

I was jealous of Karl's huge desert unit buck. Sure I could have killed a buck that big or even bigger if I had the money and time off work and could afford all the cool stuff he used to make that hunt a success. Anyone can do that! But hey don't call me jealous!

Of course I am still jealous of Karl's deer. Timbermulies, not so much. It's not that big for a nontypical. 

I think alot of people are making assumptions about where the elk was killed and don't actually know the facts. And since they don't know the facts, they just assume it's sketchy. And the responses make you sound jealous. That's my opinion and it's not a cop out for anything. I firmly believe that a major contributing factor in hunting success is how much money you have to spend, and how much time you can dedicate to the season. I always know where big animals live, I just don't have the time to dedicate to pursuing them. So when you compare hunting to sports, it's not so much athleticism like it is in basketball or football. Deer don't care if you can run a single digit 40. Classifying hunting as a sport is kind of ridiculous. It's now a money game. It didn't used to be, but it is now.

[trophyhunt]

One thing I see posted a lot about these raffle tags and auction tags is how these big spenders are helping so much with the conservation of whichever species they are buying tags for. I know the money must be going somewhere, but I can’t remember any tag numbers for us normal hunters increasing even one time since these special tags were implemented. The opposite seems to be true where seasons keep getting shorter and “ quality “ permit numbers continue to decline. I think that’s where some of this so called jealousy arises from. 1 guy has numerous big horn sheep and monster bulls while the rest of us are limited to one tag in your life, all because of money? Maybe the OIL rules should apply to these raffle and auction tags also for the true OIL species?

great point!  All that money made on the raffles/auctions and our number of tags are dropping!!

[LDennis24]

You nailed it!!!!  Maybe you guys should start a thread about why Beau Brooks is misleading everyone then. Not bash his dad who hasn't made any claims what so ever about the elk. 

[full choke]

I am a bit surprised no one has brought up the possibility of corner crossing? 

[trophyhunt]

Didn't you pack salt in to a location to attract your deer and have it become habituated to a certain location and the scent of you being there? What's the difference? You probably have more photos of your deer than this guy does of his elk alive.

That’s not even close to the same thing. And if you can’t see the difference then you’re the problem with hunting today. I packed in salt 5 months and 4 days before I shot my buck. And it only came to the salt lick 3 times before the season began and hadn’t been to the salt in 5 weeks before I shot it. I wasn’t trying to get it “habituated” to anything, I was trying to see what was living in an area and be able to target the most mature buck. I shot my buck almost 4 miles from any roads and over 2000 feet of elevation gain from my pickup. The difference is I worked by butt off for a buck that nobody else knew about and was happy with that. I didn’t lie about it and actually shoot it in my neighborhood where it was eating under my apple tree the day before. Casey’s son Beau is acting like it was a grueling hunt for months and this bull “reappeared” in December and they finally got it done on the last day. I don’t know the details of the hunt, nor does it really matter as long as it was legal. But it is not even close to the same, mine was an otc tag that anyone in the world with a hunters license can buy. His bull was on a raffle tag in which you can hunt for 5 months straight and he didn’t get it done until it came down by people’s yards. Am I saying I wouldn’t have shot the bull? Absolutely not, I would’ve shot that bull in a heartbeat. However, if I had shot it, I would’ve came clean and told everyone the truth of the story, which they still haven’t done. Everything about this bull is hear say so far and that is why it is so controversial. If they had came clean and said, we shot this bull the second it crossed onto public from so and so’s yard full of hay, the story would’ve lost its luster, but at least everyone would’ve known the truth.


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You nailed it!!! The hunters kid has caused a ton of people to chime in. Keep your mouth shut and move on BUT when you attempt to paint a picture as this was a DIY hunt for 4 months when it was shot just off of a apple pile in someone’s pasture is plain and simple IT IS WRONG!! He wanted attention and he got it!!! Your post is spot on!!

The original post by the hunters son has caused 90% of the negative comments IMO.


[/quote]exactly!!! Most don’t give two rips about killing that beast under an apple tree on a private farm! It’s not jealously, it’s exactly about the kids original post. 

[TimberMuleys]

You nailed it!!!!  Maybe you guys should start a thread about why Beau Brooks is misleading everyone then. Not bash his dad who hasn't made any claims what so ever about the elk. 

Who is bashing his dad? I see most people questioning the hunt ethics. Not Casey himself.


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[Dan-o]

Please, if you feel a need to discuss this topic further, do so without taking any more personal shots at each other.