Hunting with a suppressor - dumb idea?

[ljsommer]

I have a Sig Cross Trax (swapped the ridiculous butt stock for something actually usable) with a can on it chambered in 308. I am running a Leupold VX5 HD. My primary hunting rifle is a Tikka T3 Lite also in 308, with a Viper Vortex PST. I zeroed my Tikka once, about a decade ago, and while I still shoot it annually at the range to check zero I've never made a single adjustment to it.

The Cross has been at the range on two occasions now to try to zero it. The first occasion I had to go home after only 5-6 shots because the original butt stock had destroyed my shoulder. Today's visit with the new stock was much better, but I could not for the life of me secure a consistent zero. I would get close and then suddenly a single shot would go wild and I'd be back to square one.

I noticed that the can had started to back itself off, and I wonder if that is contributing to my difficulty. The can backed itself off and loosened up, but in addition to that, the heat buildup on the suppressor (one shot every 60+ seconds) made the visibility out of the scope awful.

A suppressor seems to introduce a lot of unnecessary complexes and nuances. What are the actual "pros" when comparing running a can vs not? I've never owned a can before this so I don't have any experience. I see lots of folks hunting with these things, and from where I am standing I can't see why.

Should I try to sort this out or just go back to my Tikka T3?

[addicted1]

I guess the main advantage would be noise suppression…A loose can would most certainly cause issues with you projectile. You wouldn’t get great results shooting with a barrel that is loose at the action. This isn’t much different, the suppressor will have some impact on the bullet trajectory and if loose it won’t be as consistent.

[coachg]

Hello,

I’ve switched to hunting suppressed a few years ago.  Never will go back, so much better of an experience.  A couple things:

1.  If your suppressor is even a 1/2 turn loose, it can severely affect the accuracy.  Had the exact same thing happen to me when I first started shooting suppressed. A little loctite may help.

2.  If you get a suppressor cover it will massively cut down on the “haze” from the heat.

Hope this helps

[EnglishSetter]

While I'm not "suppressor trained", range day and afield are 2 entirely different environments.  No real opportunity to shoot loose or develop mirage.  At the range you'll have to mitigate those potentials whether you're tuning your hunting rifle or just practicing.

[birdshooter1189]

After hunting coyotes and varmints suppressed for a few years, i cringe at the idea of having to hunt anything unsuppressed.

1. Yes heat build up can affect visibility, but you usually don't shoot more than 5 shots quickly when hunting. Never been an issue for me when hunting.

2. Yes if the suppressor comes loose it will affect accuracy and can even cause baffle strikes.  Just get in the habbit of checking the tightness of the suppressor periodically.  This has never been an issue for me in the field.  Consider wrapping some tape around the joint of the barrel and suppressor to keep it from moving if it's coming loose on its own. Or locktite the threads.

3. When shooting suppressed, especially in the trees, the sound of the shock doesn't stun you like a flash bang just went off in front of you.  Your eyes and ears will be less startled and will increase your awareness and ability for a follow up shot if needed.

4.  When shooting suppressed and the shot is further than 50 yards, you will be able to hear the impact of the bullet and know right away if it's a hit or miss.  A watermellon-like THUMP is a hit on flesh and sounds much different than a bullet striking dirt/rocks/trees.

5.  If you miss, or if there are multiple animals.....the shots won't spook the other animals as much if you are suppressed.

6.  If you are hunting near properties that belong to anti-hunters....you are less likely to catch their attention.

7. Suppressors act like muzzle brakes and reduce recoil; some more effectively than others, but they all help.

[Wolfdog2314]

I’ve got the Sig cross Trax in 308 also and was running in to the same issues of inconsistent groups. I’d have a couple group up and then be way off. Long story short there was too much run out in my barrel from the factory. (Alignment of barrel to my suppressor is the easiest terms I can explain it in). I sent the rifle to Thunderbeast and they fixed it. They said the runout was .006”. I now have .9” consistent groups with a 168 Berger. This is setup as my blacktail brush gun.

Of course I didn’t find this out initially until I got a bullet strike at the end of my supressor. I had seen the slightest of marks on the exit hole before, but I attributed that to the suppressor being lose after a shooting session my first time out with it.

That inconsistent of groups you’re having, I’d want that checked. Any good gunsmith should be able to, but Thunderbeast was amazing to deal with. They said they “fix” twice as many barrels as they thread themselves.

I won’t hunt without a suppressor anymore. The hearing protection and animal reaction (at times) is well worth it.

[pickardjw]

Similar to others, I don't hunt unsuppressed anymore except for muzzy and shotgun. An neither do most of my hunting buddies. Love this pic from Idaho spring bear this year with a couple new guys in the group. Knew I'd like them when I saw their rifles!

1. Crank that can on when everything is cold. As it heats up at the range it may loosen a bit. Make sure it's tight after the first mag and periodically after. Some guys have an oven mitt in their range bag for this express purpose 

2. Cover for the range is a must. LS Wild makes a minimalist, low profile cover that keeps mirage down for about 10 shots. Tons of other options that'll get you out to ~20 shots or so before mirage is unavoidable. All depending on timing of course.

3. So many other things that can be contributing to poor grouping, but should be pretty easy to verify shooting some 10 round groups with and without the can.

Pros: Ear pro not necessary (to a certain extent), easier to communicate with a partner in the field quietly (shooter/spotter), very different game reaction to shots, reduced recoil, reduced muzzle blast. I also like that it reduces my profile to other hunters in the area.

Cons: Added weight, added length, added potential failure point, cost.

[Sneaky]

suppressor model?

A mirage cover is needed for the range. LS wild is cheap and does what you need to get shoot a ten shot group. You will want to let the barrel cool off anyway before developing significant mirage.

The tikka is a better rifle. That being said, taking the suppressor off is likely to make your issues worse before it makes them better. Recoil, noise, and lightweight are all factors working against accuracy that a suppressor helps mitigate. I won't hunt or shoot for that matter without one if I can avoid it.

When you tighten on your suppressor, get it tight, back it off a half turn or so, and then snap it tight again. This could help with any loosening you might be experiencing. I have more issues getting mine to come off than keeping them tight.

[STEVO85]

First thing I'd do is zero your Cross without your can and make sure it is shooting consistent groups. If it still isn't grouping then you have other issues like a bad scope, loose mounts, or the gun itself. If that checks out get an alignment rod and make sure your can and your bore are aligned correctly when tight. If your can is backing off when shooting they make locking muzzle devices for most cans that you can use. If your can isn't tight it will mess with the barrel harmonics and screw up your accuracy. If it is loose enough or not aligned properly then you have a bad day coming when you get a baffle or endcap strike and destroy your can. As far as mirage off the can and barrel, in most hunting scenarios that won't be an issue because you are only taking a single shot or maybe a couple. For a range day either get a suppressor cover or slow down your course of fire, plus for a hunting gun you will want to zero for a cold bore shot as you can get impact shift as the barrel warms up. I assume you know that you will almost certainly have poa to poi shift when shooting with or without the can so make sure you zero for how you plan to shoot. Almost everything I have is shot suppressed because it is that much more pleasant of an experience and the positives surpass the negatives for me. You just need to get your system figured out with your can and commit to shooting it that way 100% of the time because switching back and forth will cause frustrations.

[ljsommer]

Thanks for all the info folks. The suppressor is a CAT ODB A1. I called the store that my wife bought the rifle from (it was a gift) and asked them some questions and got some answers I did not expect. They told me that you should *not* zero a rifle with the suppressor on, and that a loose suppressor would *not* negatively affect the trajectory of a round. Both of these pieces of information contradict the admittedly limited research I'd done on the issue.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, and #Wolfdog2314 I will keep that in mind. My next plan is to take it back to the range and remove the suppressor and start from scratch and try to secure a steady zero and then go back to the can and re-zero if necessary. I am not one of those guys that likes to fiddle with their guns. To me this thing is just a tool and I don't want it to become a big time sink. I like to confirm zero each season and then put the rifle back until I go into the field, but otherwise it stays stored. I am way, way too busy for my tools to not function properly.

Thanks all,

[zwickeyman]

IMHO

It is crazy to not zero with suppressor on. Some cans in some rifles have significant POI shift. Some group better with can , some group worse but most have some POI

I highly suggest zeroing with the can on

[Mtnwalker]

IMHO

It is crazy to not zero with suppressor on. Some cans in some rifles have significant POI shift. Some group better with can , some group worse but most have some POI

I highly suggest zeroing with the can on

  You should always zero your rifle with whatever brake/can/accessories are going to be on it when you're hunting, full stop. Sounds like the person at that store either misunderstood the question or is talking out their rear end. Also a loose suppressor can ABSOLUTELY have a negative impact on POI/group size. This is not even up for debate. My rifle groups a bit better with the can than without with my current load but POI shifts about 1moa

[birdshooter1189]

IMHO

It is crazy to not zero with suppressor on. Some cans in some rifles have significant POI shift. Some group better with can , some group worse but most have some POI

I highly suggest zeroing with the can on

  You should always zero your rifle with whatever brake/can/accessories are going to be on it when you're hunting, full stop. Sounds like the person at that store either misunderstood the question or is talking out their rear end. Also a loose suppressor can ABSOLUTELY have a negative impact on POI/group size. This is not even up for debate. My rifle groups a bit better with the can than without with my current load but POI shifts about 1moa

I concur with the above.  Store was wrong on both counts.

1.  You SHOULD zero the rifle with the suppressor on and tight. Zero it in the exact condition that it will be in when you take a shot in the field.

2.  A loose suppressor will absolutely cause trajectory inconsistencies. Make sure it's snug. ALWAYS.

[dreadi]

What are you using to mount the silencer?


Black Hammer Arms
www.blackhammerarms.com
The Guy On HuntWA Selling Suppressors
@blackhammerarms

[Antlershed]

I’ve got the Sig cross Trax in 308 also and was running in to the same issues of inconsistent groups. I’d have a couple group up and then be way off. Long story short there was too much run out in my barrel from the factory. (Alignment of barrel to my suppressor is the easiest terms I can explain it in). I sent the rifle to Thunderbeast and they fixed it. They said the runout was .006”. I now have .9” consistent groups with a 168 Berger. This is setup as my blacktail brush gun.

Of course I didn’t find this out initially until I got a bullet strike at the end of my supressor. I had seen the slightest of marks on the exit hole before, but I attributed that to the suppressor being lose after a shooting session my first time out with it.

That inconsistent of groups you’re having, I’d want that checked. Any good gunsmith should be able to, but Thunderbeast was amazing to deal with. They said they “fix” twice as many barrels as they thread themselves.

I won’t hunt without a suppressor anymore. The hearing protection and animal reaction (at times) is well worth it.

Was that .006 after they fixed it?

[Wolfdog2314]

From what I understand, .006 was before they fixed it.

I’ve got the Sig cross Trax in 308 also and was running in to the same issues of inconsistent groups. I’d have a couple group up and then be way off. Long story short there was too much run out in my barrel from the factory. (Alignment of barrel to my suppressor is the easiest terms I can explain it in). I sent the rifle to Thunderbeast and they fixed it. They said the runout was .006”. I now have .9” consistent groups with a 168 Berger. This is setup as my blacktail brush gun.

Of course I didn’t find this out initially until I got a bullet strike at the end of my supressor. I had seen the slightest of marks on the exit hole before, but I attributed that to the suppressor being lose after a shooting session my first time out with it.

That inconsistent of groups you’re having, I’d want that checked. Any good gunsmith should be able to, but Thunderbeast was amazing to deal with. They said they “fix” twice as many barrels as they thread themselves.

I won’t hunt without a suppressor anymore. The hearing protection and animal reaction (at times) is well worth it.

Was that .006 after they fixed it?

[Antlershed]

Hmmm…ok. I was curious because I had to send a rifle into Thunderbeast as well (Ruger American), and they said they were able to get it down to .004” runout and made it sound like that was acceptable. I am headed to the range now to see how it shoots.

[Wolfdog2314]

Hmmm…ok. I was curious because I had to send a rifle into Thunderbeast as well (Ruger American), and they said they were able to get it down to .004” runout and made it sound like that was acceptable. I am headed to the range now to see how it shoots.

I gotch ya. It’s a new concept for me. It appears that sometimes it is impossible to remove all runout, but the closer to .000 obviously the better. Not entirely sure what is “acceptable” runout. But I’m certain I was at .006 before, getting supressor strikes, and now I’m good after they fixed it.

[Antlershed]

New for me as well. I was getting baffled strikes with a Ruger American Compact in 6.5cm and a TBAC Ultra 9 6.5 can. Pretty sure they told me I was at .047” runout when they receive the rifle. Took it to the range yesterday and it is shooting great now.

Sorry to derail the original question, but at the range yesterday I shot next to a guy running a side port brake, and it was miserable to shoot next to him. Prior to buying suppressors, I always shot with a muzzle break, but now I will never shoot/hunt unsuppressed. So many advantages and the only downside is my 6.5 PRC has a 24” barrel with a TBAC Magnus, which adds weight and length, but I’ll take that trade off any day.

[callturner]

To me they are just a fad. Maybe useful varmint hunting if you have more than one target animal.

[pickardjw]

To me they are just a fad. Maybe useful varmint hunting if you have more than one target animal.

Nah, they're going to be the new normal.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/suppressor-sales-setting-records/

[HereDuckyDucky]

To each his own, but I won't let my son shoot a rifle without one. The hearing protection is worth it by itself. The reduced recoil is a nice benefit.

RW

[Sneaky]

Any of you who are on the fence need to just do it. Buy a cheap threaded tikka and an omega 300 thats all you need

[GWP]

Similar to others, I don't hunt unsuppressed anymore except for muzzy and shotgun. An neither do most of my hunting buddies. Love this pic from Idaho spring bear this year with a couple new guys in the group. Knew I'd like them when I saw their rifles!

1. Crank that can on when everything is cold. As it heats up at the range it may loosen a bit. Make sure it's tight after the first mag and periodically after. Some guys have an oven mitt in their range bag for this express purpose 

2. Cover for the range is a must. LS Wild makes a minimalist, low profile cover that keeps mirage down for about 10 shots. Tons of other options that'll get you out to ~20 shots or so before mirage is unavoidable. All depending on timing of course.

3. So many other things that can be contributing to poor grouping, but should be pretty easy to verify shooting some 10 round groups with and without the can.

Pros: Ear pro not necessary (to a certain extent), easier to communicate with a partner in the field quietly (shooter/spotter), very different game reaction to shots, reduced recoil, reduced muzzle blast. I also like that it reduces my profile to other hunters in the area.

Cons: Added weight, added length, added potential failure point, cost.

That brings a whole new meaning to the saying "Canned Hunt"! Sorry, couldn't resist.

Sooo, you guys all suck! Why? Because I have wanted one for some time and it sounds great all the way around.
Now I kind of need one. I have two pellet guns with them and they are great. I can not imagine not having them as they both are loud without the cans on.

On the muzzle brake statement, I had a lever 45/70 with one and after ONE session I got rid of the gun. Not for me.

So for you guys running cans, I have had bad crown jobs that after correction shot great. Which do you think has the most accuracy impact, the crown on the barrel, or the crown on the end of the suppressor?

Also, are you all running sub sonic? I have heard canned guns shot both ways, and while the super sonic had the 'ripping' sound going down range, the muzzle noise was gone for the most part, making it easier on the ears.

[pickardjw]

Similar to others, I don't hunt unsuppressed anymore except for muzzy and shotgun. An neither do most of my hunting buddies. Love this pic from Idaho spring bear this year with a couple new guys in the group. Knew I'd like them when I saw their rifles!

1. Crank that can on when everything is cold. As it heats up at the range it may loosen a bit. Make sure it's tight after the first mag and periodically after. Some guys have an oven mitt in their range bag for this express purpose 

2. Cover for the range is a must. LS Wild makes a minimalist, low profile cover that keeps mirage down for about 10 shots. Tons of other options that'll get you out to ~20 shots or so before mirage is unavoidable. All depending on timing of course.

3. So many other things that can be contributing to poor grouping, but should be pretty easy to verify shooting some 10 round groups with and without the can.

Pros: Ear pro not necessary (to a certain extent), easier to communicate with a partner in the field quietly (shooter/spotter), very different game reaction to shots, reduced recoil, reduced muzzle blast. I also like that it reduces my profile to other hunters in the area.

Cons: Added weight, added length, added potential failure point, cost.

That brings a whole new meaning to the saying "Canned Hunt"! Sorry, couldn't resist.

Sooo, you guys all suck! Why? Because I have wanted one for some time and it sounds great all the way around.
Now I kind of need one. I have two pellet guns with them and they are great. I can not imagine not having them as they both are loud without the cans on.

On the muzzle brake statement, I had a lever 45/70 with one and after ONE session I got rid of the gun. Not for me.

So for you guys running cans, I have had bad crown jobs that after correction shot great. Which do you think has the most accuracy impact, the crown on the barrel, or the crown on the end of the suppressor?

Also, are you all running sub sonic? I have heard canned guns shot both ways, and while the super sonic had the 'ripping' sound going down range, the muzzle noise was gone for the most part, making it easier on the ears.

No help on the crown question, but re: subsonic I'm only shooting that in my .22LR suppressed pistol. Too much fun. Supers in the .223/5.56 and 6CM. If I get a .300 BLK I'll shoot subs.

[STEVO85]

There isn't a crown on a suppressor, the bullet never touches the can unless you were to have an old style suppressor with wipes. What can affect accuracy is the way the can is attached to the rifle. Old reliable is direct threading the can to the gun and should give you the most consistent groups. There is a plethora of quick attach muzzle devices, some better than others. The way these attach is where accuracy can deteriorate. If they are loose or just not a good system they will mess with the harmonics of the barrel and cause inconsistent groups.
For the most part everyone is going to be shooting supers not subs unless you are playing at the range and being quiet or set up for a close range hunting shot and chose to shoot a subsonic designed bullet like a Hornady sub-x or something similar.

[GWP]

Thanks!
I hit a few suppressor sites last night and one (Silencer Central?) had a vid on different mounting systems, including the "Tri Lug" spring loaded twist lock set up. I had no clue there were that many, but I should not have been surprised.
One also had some good info about how and why suppressors will not work on some semi autos, and cures for some of them.
For me at this point IF I get one it will be for a single shot that is already threaded 1/2X28, so 'easy peasy' direct thread.

[pickardjw]

Thanks!
I hit a few suppressor sites last night and one (Silencer Central?) had a vid on different mounting systems, including the "Tri Lug" spring loaded twist lock set up. I had no clue there were that many, but I should not have been surprised.
One also had some good info about how and why suppressors will not work on some semi autos, and cures for some of them.
For me at this point IF I get one it will be for a single shot that is already threaded 1/2X28, so 'easy peasy' direct thread.

Read up on Silencer Central if you purchase from them. Less than stellar reviews.

Silencer Shop has a kiosk at East County Guns in Elma if you're in Westport. Little bit of a drive but those kiosks are great for a first time buyer.

Most (if not all) .30 cal cans are going to come with 5/8-24 threads. Down Range Products sells quality thread adapters with a few SKU's that come with thread protectors. I have three rifles with them, no issues with a bit of rocksett on the threads. Otherwise, pick a can that has interchangeable hubs.

[addicted]

This was my first year hunting with a suppressor. Even though it is a smaller can it was very nice that neither me nor my partner had ringing ears after the shot.